The same with my Taylor last week. Last few reps were a real push, power didn’t quite make it but HR was up to zone so… 
1 Like
From the “The 30/15 High-Intensity Interval Session A practical guide” available from wattkg.com:
In my experience, this will vary significantly depending on the individual rider and his/her capacity at higher power outputs.
and
My experience is that most riders will hit the «spot» for this workout somewhere between 120 and 140% of FTP.
However, I would recommend giving the workout a go without worrying about your FTP. Simply aim for an intensity you think you will just be able to sustain for the total duration of the session. If you are close to dying towards the end, but able to get through the last cycles (without big power drops), you hit the spot.
A somewhat conservative approach is to try 3 sets of 13x30/15s at 120% and increase on last set if feeling strong. Adjust next 30/15 workout based on the experience.
1 Like
You might have already sussed this out from other people’s responses, don’t worry about the CTL. As everyone says, not all TSS is created equal, so bottom line, you don’t have any idea whether CTL of X built from all sweetspot is the same as CTL of X from polarized training. What matters is your performance at that CTL and you wont’ know that until you try.
CTL can be useful but you need to be aware of its limitations. Like, if your training mix has been consistent, you know that CTL up means you’ve been working harder. But if your training mix changes around, it’s not always clear what CTL increases, decreases, or stasis really means.
TSS and CTL are just maths, they don’t really know your physiology. So like if you do hard intervals where you’re tired after, some more hard intervals where you’re tired after, and a long ride or two long rides that’s long enough to make you tired, you’re gonna improve, regardless of what happens to the CTL.
They are simplified in order to make them useful; the body is complex, so simple models can be helpful. But you gotta be aware of what’s hidden within the simplification.
3 Likes
I’m a little late to the party I realize. I have not read the paper but according to the The 30/15 Interval Enhance Performance in Elite Cyclists | Wattkg.com article “Riders in both groups were instructed to perform their intervals at their maximal sustainable intensity.” This to me indicates a “best average pace” for the 13*30/15s
1 Like
I just started my Polarized block yesterday and hit some really good numbers on my first threshold workout (Washington). As I think more about this Polarized approach, I’m thinking about some of its potential disadvantages. Just speculating here, but one of those is being able to maintain a high level of muscular endurance and the ability to ride long durations at Sweet Spot or at Threshold…both of which I find hugely valuable in race situations and/or long climbs.
What have your experiences been when going Polarized with regards to the above? Is there value in working in a Sweet Spot session (like 3x20 or 2x30) 1-2x per month to touch up this system?
3 Likes
I would say yes, it would be beneficial to maintain any SS gains accrued over the base period (not that muscular endurance would disappear overnight…).
I don’t see how it would do any harm, if used judiciously (i.e, every 7 to 10 days).
1 Like
Thanks for posting your version of a POL block using the TR platform.
Although I’m in a whole different league at my advanced age, I have basically the same question you do about whether the POL approach will improve the middle Tempo/SS zones it usually avoids, or whether I have to train extensively in those to perform OK in them. I’ll be interested in what you find out, or learn along the way, and what others have already found out.
1 Like
To my eyes the polarized approach is just a tool to use, and fits better in some situations than others. There are benefits from training with tempo and sweet spot zones, and should not be ignored IMHO.
That’s a funny quote since polarized training is all about not doing threshold! I understand your meaning though…
Like you, I’m cherry picking aspects of polarized training, but I can’t leave out threshold or SS work either. I think a pure polarized approach might be OK for some particular times in the year but as we near race day (hopefully), I think you’re right to add in some threshold and SS work. I’m going to schedule 2 longer threshold workouts every month which should be enough to maintain endurance and leave enough on the table to tax myself on the “20” days.
My limited understanding is that Polarized training is about intensity distribution. You can do Polarized with any training zone. To clarify, when I said “Threshold” it’s more like supra-threshold. 105-110%. Some level of intensity that elicits 90% of HRmax.
I’m going to do what you do and work 2x30 or 3x20 @ Sweet Spot every other week into my longer ride, and try to do them later in the ride after some KJs have been burned.
The only reason I see it necessary to do SS/Threshold-work is to check how heart rate/RPE is behaving.
I’m an XCO-racer taking 2020 as a work-on-my-aerobic-engine-and-body-composition-year. So I’m currently only doing POL Z1 or POL Z3-work. However, being 8 weeks into riding more and more Z2(7-zone model) I’m currently feeling it being very easy to fall into low tempo-z3 without my heart rate skyrocketing like before. So I’ve lowered my RPE/heart rate on long Z2-rides, even indoor, greatly and have no issues hitting VO2Max-intervals at an all-time high FTP. However I’m currently experimenting with everything to figure out what works best for me, being a fairly new bike racer.
YMMV. I’m absolutely positive that the discipline to keep yourself to Z2 throughout 2,5-4hrs of riding is beneficial regardless of end targets.
2 Likes
TL:DR short burst VO2 workouts seem too easy, but struggling for 3min+ efforts without bringing power down
Trying to understand my VO2 workouts. After a ramp test on Sunday i brought my FTP down from 302 to 288. On Tuesday i done Monadnock +2 (4mins @ 115%) and it was tough but felt right, HR getting upto 90-95% HRM after just over a minute. I’ve struggled with longer efforts at 120% so the lower % plus lower FTP seemed to put me in the right place.
Then today I did Rattlesnake +1 (hard start then 30/15s) but it was far too easy, after the hard start my HR was coming down so my power was going progressively up instead of down, reguarly doing 130-140% FTP and my HR never got up above 90% until the end when i sprinted.
Just not sure what this means, is my FTP too high? Do i clear lactate ok but my VO2max is low? I know I should/could ignore the power figures but also want to make sure I’m getting the most of my vo2 workouts since its essentially my only intensity during POL.
A lot of people have to raise their VO2Max-power to 140-150% instead of 120%. You should read the thread. It has a lot of useful information.
1 Like
I would be curious to know at what point into your 4 min intervals your HR hit 90% of max.
Everyone has a different heart-rate response. I wouldn’t look at this and think that you have a low vO2max. It’s more about how quickly your heart rate responds. I won’t speak to the why’s because I don’t know enough. This article has some good info:
The Heart's Response to Exercise — PT Direct.
How did the longer intervals feel on your legs vs the 30s bursts? I find that longer vO2max intervals produce higher quantities of lactate and that I get a lot of burn. Whereas the 30s intervals don’t produce as much lactate, but hit my aerobic system harder and cause a faster respiration rate due to the very short “recoveries”.
Same, see what workout did you do today?
On that workout I was getting to 90%max HR after 90s give or take 5s or so. In the short bursts even 140% for a minute wasn’t getting there.
Yeah on the longer efforts it always feels like it my legs burning that makes me stop or I need to manage the most. Today, legs were fine, but breathing wasn’t too bad - maybe I need to go harder in the first few minutes to make sure my HR is up high enough. I’ve scheduled rattlesnake +2 for next week.
Thanks for the link, I’ll give it read!
I’d concentrate on making Rattlesnake a tough enough workout rather than resorting to their + versions. Done properly it should be very hard. Have you tried doing it in manual mode? Follow the power line for that first 1min interval, but then for the 30/15s, just go full gas rest full gas rest. Your legs and lungs will soon find their natural limit.
2 Likes
For the 30/xx, use much higher power and much higher cadence.
Ex. I did 3min intervals the other day with hard starts: first 15s was 135+ rpm @ 200%, then 15s 120 rpm @ 130+% – got my HR up to >90% HRmax within 30 seconds. For most of my VO2max work now I pay a lot more attention to my HR than power; I go out HARD and then maintain the HR. Evaluate power after the workout.
If 120% or even 140% isn’t getting you there, try 180% or more. It’s not written in stone.
4 Likes
understand from your post yesterday that you are a fan of cadence, but those hard start intervals can be effective at lower cadences in my experience.
Yesterday I hit 90% HRmax within 14 seconds of my first 3-min interval:
(interval started at 21:34)
and cadence never exceeded 93rpm on that interval. Average power for that was 134% FTP, again the % FTP is something highly individual.
Power view of that 14 seconds:
Modulated power with legs and pedal stroke, and not cadence. The first 3 peaks are above 170% FTP. WKO5 has it 61% high cadence / high force, and 39% low cadence / high force. Haven’t spent much time with those charts, the dividing line on cadence looks like 90rpm. Not the prettiest hard start LOL but I’ll take it.
Cadence is definitely something to experiment with and find what works best.
During vo2max workouts outside I never look at heart rate. Just go as hard as possible and review after the ride is done. I have been paying attention to breathing after a crit last year when I blew up, recovered after a minute or two, and then did a hard time trial effort for ~20 minutes. While you can’t be sure without being hooked up to a cart, monitoring your breathing is worthwhile IMHO.
1 Like
I took a crack at Brasted today. I turned ERG mode off knowing that 120% wouldn’t get my HR high enough. My max HR this season is 195 bpm. As you can see, 21min @ 90% of HRM. I would call this a successful vO2max workout.
Lessons I’ve learned are that you shouldn’t always follow TR workouts by the book, depending on what you’re after.
PS: There is no way I would have been able to do this workout following a TR Build plan. I would have been way too spent from the previous workouts. However, I do believe that structuring my week so that my intense days have 3 days of easy between them allowed for the freshness needed to execute this workout.
2 Likes