Power at Vo2 max not improving

Hey everyone,

long time lurker, haven’t posted in a while now. I’ve got a problem that I’m unable to solve.

Male, 30, have been training consistently for years. Average weekly volume 10-15h throughout the year. FTP around 300w, max 5-minute power at 360w, max 1-minute power at 470w.

In order to raise my FTP, I need to increase my ceiling, aka my Vo2max, first. Despite hammering Vo2Max intervals for 2-3 blocks (Empirical Cycling style), my 5-minute power (that I use as a proxy for measurement, but equally 1, 2, 3, or 7-minute power) just isn’t going up. My shorter duration power is staying the same and even the ability to hold (let’s say 1-minute power) for longer (2, 3 minutes) isn’t improving.

So, any clues? Advice, tips? Just a warm word? I’m quite disappointed at the moment to be honest.

Im just about to start a Vo2 block myself for the same reason (stagnant FTP). Everything Ive read seems to indicate that the gains arent realized until after taking a serious recovery period and then doing some threshold work.

Have you done these blocks back to back? Maybe not enough recovery?

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Hey @KlemenSj!

We get into this subject on our last episode if you wanna give it watch:

I see you’re not active with TrainerRoad so it’s a little hard to assess what may be going on here and if you’re following a plan.

However, it sounds like you may be in need of some nice recovery as @gally24 mentioned, especially if you’re doing back to back weeks of 10-15hrs. Recovery is crucial for adaptations.

A few things you can look at are:

Are You Actually Overloading the System?
You mention following Empirical Cycling-style VO2max blocks, but are you truly hitting maximal oxygen uptake levels?
VO2max intervals should feel like reallyyyyy hard, not just hitting a power target.

Are You Recovering Enough?
If you’ve been smashing VO2max for 2-3 blocks straight without an intentional de-load, you may be carrying too much fatigue to adapt.

Are You Training at the Right Duration?
If you’re only doing 4-5 minute intervals, you might need to shake things up.
30/30s or 60/30s allow you to accumulate more time at VO2max without being fully gassed.

Fueling Issues?
High-intensity efforts burn through glycogen fast. Making sure you are fueling the work is key!

Following a Training Plan?
If you’re not following a structured training plan, that could be part of the issue. While it’s totally possible to make gains without one, VO2max adaptations require a balance of overload, specificity, and recovery.

At TrainerRoad we have a plan specifically designed to raise FTP :wink:

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are you doing any anaerobic power/capacity work? on its face may seem counterintuitive but I’ve hit short power bests in conjunction with doing anaerobic work.

but also, are you doing these blocks all consecutively? I know the EC guys personally and they would never ever do more than a single block of VO2 work

So I can only really attest to what’s worked for me…but I’ve done 1 VO2 block (I’m coached by an EC coach so certainly in that style) each January the past 2 years. I do them after a base/aerobic block of progressing up to long intervals of max FTP TTE (so like 5x15, 4x20 or something). Then after the VO2 block I recover hard and I don’t usually see the gains for at least 2 weeks. In the past I would do VO2s in more of a mixed block and just not recover enough, dig myself into a hole, and then never really see any improvements. I think the recovery is super important. Like you should almost feel like you’re recovering too much.

I hope these aren’t back to back…

What’s the timeline on these? EC doesn’t recommend doing more than 2 in one year, and even that much can be pushing it if you’re doing other intense things through the year like racing.

Also make sure you’re recovered enough going into the block. But I think we may need more specific details about your training and implementation to give a more specific answer.

A 400m runner doesn’t train like a 1500m runner. Your 1 min power isn’t going to be stretched training to improve 5min power if you’re already a well training athlete.

If you’re really average 10-15hours per week, then yeah you are.

You don’t need to ‘raise your vo2max ceiling’ to raise ftp. That’s just a salesy way to promote training ideas. You can train your ftp to be a higher percentage of your vo2 max, tho the training will probably drift them both upwards.

If you’re tapped out on progress, then you need to change it up. If I had as much time as you, I’d prob do a 3-4hr ride where I ride at 90-95% of my 3min max power for 3min every 45mins of the ride. It’s all about getting you to breathe heavy, that ought to do it. I wouldn’t take the numbers too seriously if you’re training as much as you are. It’s supposed to be for fun

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Great question, one I have heard a lot in the last couple of years, it’s a sensitive subject for some coaches and I’ve certainly see a few ruffled feathers when asking why this will not improve given the massive emphasis on V02max work (exactly in the style you described). Most people report that this kind of work only improves their repeatability but not their 5m power. I believe it is a reasonable request to want your coach to improve this as the compound score in elite cycling uses the 5 minute power as a strongly indicative prediction of one day race performance, (although compound score after 2000 - 3000 kJ expended is likely more specific)

First thing to keep in mind is that there are tiers to this sport, some people are literally just built different, we cannot train to reach the level of Tadej, it’s everything at once raw V02max, Central nervous system, fiber typing and 3 dimensional arrangement of skeletal muscle they all play a big role.

So my best 5 minutes is 500w on the trainer and I’ve done 470 for 5 in a race sim a with a higher normalized power equivalent to attacking sitting on the redline trying to hold off chasers and then having to re-surge in order to stay on once they counter attacks come at the end of the climb.

What I did to improve this is really difficult to parse out because in many ways this kind of effort is not a true V02max effort, what I mean by this is that you have to actually start in a much deeper zone and then hold on at V02max and have that ability to go back and forth. Likely anyone who is doing a tremendous 5 minutes power started out by building the anaerobic power around 1-2 minutes and simply did not stop. It’s a conversion of a strong effort (say 7w/kg for 1 minute followed by periods in which your true V02max with redlined heart rate is like the slowest you will ever go in the interval other than for brief moments).

So think of your 5 minute as a continuation of your best 3 minute and think of a strong 3 minute as the result of many years of training and hard work to extend out your best 1-2 minute and think of your best 1-2 minute as a pure expression of your attacking riding ability.

Mentality is everything, stimulus is part of it, having a good drop ride or a race sim or just the right kind mindset is super important, when I did 500 for 5 on the trainer I was playing some extremely strong emotional queues on myself, think like running through the trenches of ww2 trying to get across the gap between the lines with people counting on you to make it, stuff like that.

In terms of specific training without seeing your full history it is hard to say, generically it’s usually way more z2 overload weeks with proper emphasis on metabolic flexibility to fully maximize aerobic systems training followed by workouts that will make you puke or fail within an inch of your life, trigger asthma you didn’t even know you had, etc. I do 10 minute block with 2 minutes at 6.5w/kg followed by 6 minutes at just below FTP followed by 2 minutes at 6.5w/kg. The purpose of this is to leverage long weeks of z2 training and deliver maximum load to anaerobic and V02 systems. It’s a custom workout so based on your level you can tune it such that the average power across the 10 minutes aligns with where you want to be. Pogacar’s version would surely be closer to 9w/kg for 2 minutes on both ends as I am guessing he could probably beat Jonas’s numbers from the start of 2023 where he was able to do 7.46 for 11 minutes etalon w/kg

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As an Empirical Cycling coach I can empirically state that this is not our style. You need a significant rest if this has been your plan.

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as a 347cycling coach I can state 347 times that is not your style

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You may need to depending on where one is in their training.

There is a genetic limit to how high your vo2 max can be, but it won’t just magically be that without training.

Your ftp is a % of vo2 max but it can only be so high of a % before you need to increase your vo2 max and allow more room to grow your ftp again. (You are never going to get your ftp to 100% of vo2 max).

Regardless of how you approach raising your vo2 max this is extremely common in any endurance sport and has been a part of training for ages, to suggest you don’t need to raise your vo2 max to increase ftp is just wrong.

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Thats just not true. Vo2 max is always going to be a higher absolute power number than ftp, literally just because of the way they are defined (the duration is longer).

There is no such training method that wont simultaneously increase vo2max AND ftp. So, the idea of ‘raising the ceiling’ to then be able to ‘raise you ftp to a similar percentage of this now higher ceiling’ is just an interesting way to say lets do some harder, relatively shorter intervals for a while and hope it makes you stronger.

To suggest you actually must increase vo2 to further increase ftp is literally to say that your ftp power is exactly equal to your vo2max power, which is just silly. In other words, its saying that my lactate threshold is at 100% of my vo2max.

I never suggested anything like this? I completely agree that power at vo2 max is higher than ftp.

Depends on how well trained you are. (And how much of an impact on vo2 and ftp the training has) this is exactly why focusing on vo2 max when you are more well trained works.

Huh? No it’s not.

You’re maybe trying too hard, have you enough recovery in your plan to let the adaptations after a hard session take place?

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Don’t get down on yourself. Maybe you haven’t found the right stimulus you need to increase the power you’re looking for, or maybe you’ve hit a limit, but being disappointed won’t help. Many coaches will do consults; maybe that is something that can help you.

I’ll say, as an EC athlete, on the other side of a year of training, training is still way individualized. So saying “EC-style” vo2 max is a slight misnomer. If something wasn’t working for me, we tried something else until it did. Which is one of the huge benefits of being coached.

If you have done 2-3 blocks of vo2 recently, it’s time to rest.

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Are you trying to raise your FTP or VO2? Certainly one can help the other but they are different things.

Just a thought… and something that stood out to me… but do you do a weekly long endurance ride?

When pushing a 40-60 minute race-like effort (or even a 5 min VO2 interval) it needs to be about how fast you can go, not about endurance. For me personally the long endurance efforts helped with this a lot. It also kinda seems like you have been hammering VO2 for awhile. Might be time to step away and focus on some other form of stimulus.

Best of luck to you!

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When you look towards the higher levels of competition the meta is to be born with a good V02max it really does so much to free up the schedule.

Totally agree there are so many more low hanging fruits out there, I really like doing time in zone at power in lower V02 max (right around the zMAP from zwift, lol ) raising the aerobic floor is much less stressful of a session than raising the ceiling. when you don’t have another 70w of lactate mixing in the legs you can get a lot more done.

Yep! If you want to compete at the highest levels here pick your parents very wisely. You still have to put in the work but most people will never come close no matter how they train.

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Any training that targets one simultaneously targets the other. Pushing higher watts might increase vo2max (and power) to a greater degree than it does at relatively lower watts, but there is no ‘targeting’ one without the other. So training at zone 3, 4, or 5 is always going to be working towards increasing LT (ftp) and vo2max both at the same time.

What I’m saying (tongue in cheek), so that the only case where you must increase vo2max to increase ftp is if you’ve somehow pushed you LT (Ftp) so high that its achieved at 100% of vo2max, so the only way to raise it further is to raise the vo2max. Obv this is unrealistic…

Off the top of my head I could list about 20 things that are definitely or potentially going wrong here. Lacking sufficient rest is or training diversity are big ones, but there’s probably more to it.

Given the frequency with which we interact on the weekend Q&A, I’m surprised you’ve not yet emailed me to discuss taking a deeper dive. Please do that soon? Doesn’t seem like it’s very good for your fitness for us to keep interacting 80 characters at a time every couple weeks.

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Fractional utilization (of vo2 max) can only get so high. It won’t ever be 100%. If you are at a high fractional utilization, to further increase your ftp, you must increase vo2 max.

Not really, there will be some bleed over to vo2 max from riding at ftp but it will be minimal. It’s definitely not targeting both.

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