in one of the last podcasts Jonathan said he wants to reach a threshold level 9.
I have been training with trainerroad for a while now and always get the following:
I start at Threshold 2.x, do my workouts, get to threshold 3.8 or something, next AI FTP Detection gets triggered and I’m back down at 2.x but with a higher FTP.
How do I get my levels up? I did a breakthrough 5.7 to raise my levels and a week after that AI FTP detection kicks in and reduces the level to 3.x again.
So how is Jonathan able to get up to that kind of progression level? The only way I can imagine is to never accept the AI FTP Detection result. But that does not seem like the way to do it.
What rating did you give this Breakthrough level workout?
To the broader question, much depends on your starting PL, how you handle each step along the way (specifically finish survey rating) and the phase you are in.
Starting with a higher PL means you may get to a higher peak which sets a higher start after AIFTPD reset.
If you are frequently hitting Easy or Moderate survey ratings, AT will presumably ramp up the pending Workout Levels.
Finally, if you are in Specialty phase, TR only offers one AIFTPD at the start unless you hit one of the triggers they have in there to trip the switch.
PS: All that said, I think Jonathan unintentionally kicked off one of the key negatives inherent in PL’s. Shooting for specific values of PL’s is a target that I think even TR themselves said is not ideal. I’d have to dig a bit to find it, but I am pretty sure they have touched on that in at least one way or another. Might be worth some clarification as to his thinking here?
I know the “gamification” of PL’s gets criticism that is sometimes warranted and this might just open that door more than they would think appropriate. I do like PL’s but use them purely for helping select workouts if/when I make my own substitutions or manual selections.
How long have you been doing structured training? If the FTP increases feel good (i.e. you’re actually improving fitness) I’d say just be happy about that and trust the process.
I tend to think higher PLs are for folks whose FTP has plateaued, but who want to build out other aspects of their fitness, e.g. muscular endurance. A very high PL threshold workout with a too-low FTP is really a sweet spot workout…
i know there’s been debate on increasing ftp vs increasing progression, I always err on the side of increasing progression. I do believe low progression level workouts can mask ftp overestimation. Personally, I think guardrails/benchmarks should exist for the type of levels one should achieve at a minimum for a given FTP
@FrankTuna
Some have been bigger but there have been a couple of small bumps in the past. I’ll ignore at least that ones in the future.
@mcneese.chad
I think I gave that workout a hard. I think I never gave a SS or Threshold workout a moderate or easy rating.
@Drew
I started in April 23 but have been training on and off for a couple of years before. I think I started structured training for my first mallorca 312 somewhen in 2017. But sometimes with month and even years in between.
@hubcyclist
That is why I’m asking the question. My last FTP bump brought me up to 327 watts. Seems alot but at 203cm and around 100kg it’s not even 3.3 watts per kg…
I wanted to do Alp du Zwift in less than an hour. That needs around 3.2 watts/kg.
I failed that pretty hard. That is why I’m thinking a lower progression level with a higher ftp seems to be way off and I should try to increase my PL to get a more accurate representation as my ftp.
I’ve always pressed the button after 28 days and if all has gone well, accepted my paltry 3 to 4 watt increase.
I do seem to be stuck in a range though and am getting a bit bored with the same (or very similar workouts).
I think the new 3 weeks on/1 week off exacerbates this.
I presume TR will eventually plan to automatically adjust our FTP for us, when they feel it is optimal?
It would be good to know if it is considered better to run the PL’s to 9 and get an automatic FTP adaption, or is it preferred to keep pressing the button after 28 days?
just curious, what time and wattage did you hit? reason I ask is that FTP can be as little as 35min in duration. So if you were able to do 35mins of the alpe at, say, 315, you could use 315 as your ftp and begin a threshold progression starting at something like 4x10
That has been mentioned on the podcast as a long-term goal / ideal.
Per current TR statements and associated programming, they generally recommend taking the AIFTPD offerings in the Base & Build Phase while they shift to focus on pushing PL in Specialty phase.
I did 40 Minutes at 320. Then zwift crashed. But I wouldn’t have been able to finish remaining at that power level. So honestly have been really glad that zwift did crash…
well that’s good! you now know you have a 40min TTE at 320, and you can start to build from there! you can try and pick workouts that align to something like 4x10, 3x15, 2x20, 2x25, 2x30, etc.
I think it came across wrong, but my take was more “I want to hit threshold PL 9 because then I know I’m ready to crush it” …rather than the goal is to hit a certain level. But that’s just how I took it.
I’m always floating just below my plateau FTP, so my level goes up fast. I just went from no training for a couple of months to a 5.8 on my first workout. It just means I’m not going to get much stronger. But I can push those same watts longer.
I’d recommend, and do myself, is to use AIFTP every 8 weeks instead of 4. This will allow you to progress to higher PLs which I feel has greater benefit. Additionally, don’t be afraid of choosing higher PL workouts if TR is progressing you too slow. Often times AT will only raise my next workout 0.2+/- for the same training zone. I use alternates and choose +0.3-6 depending how the last workout felt.
Also, when doing a workout in a training zone that you haven’t done recently, it is often times much too low. I’d look at the workouts and don’t be afraid to choose a Stretch or Breakthrough Alternate workout.
I agree but perhaps suggest that what Jonathan might have been getting at was that he wanted to increase his time to exhaustion @ threshold maybe?
There’s gaming the system just to have higher progression levels and then there’s specifically targeting certain types of workouts for certain reasons, and the high PL threshold workouts generally means a lot more time in zone, which is obviously a reasonable thing to want to train for.
I could see one issue with running to 9 being if you start to top out and have limited workout selection. Lots more choice around the 4-7 range than there is at the 9+ range.
I do the same as @mcneese.chad and just accept the updates. PLs don’t really have much meaning outside the TR ecosystem as their main purpose is to help you choose (or to help TR recommend) the right workout. So keeping them in that middle range where there’s more workout choice makes sense. I’ve also turned off the option to have my PLs displayed on strava when I do a TR ride, as it avoids any temptation for me to think of PLs as something to be gamified, or for friends to start commenting on or asking about them.
not sure why more choice is a good thing, I mean, I get why people want more choice, but I believe we only need a small handful of workouts. accepting questionable ftp increases just to stay in a certain PL range also seems like gaming the system in a needless way. But i’m very much in the school of thought of increasing time (including TTE at threshold)