Realize this is a quote from something back in September, but Steve’s prescriptions were exactly the same as Weber/Lorang would prescribe to lower VLa Max, Middle intensity at low cadence.
And yes, VLa Max is important here, lower VLa Max, and the intensity level at which fatmax happens goes up.
Nobody should get stuck on 83% or think it’s a magical number. Neal has said 84% in other podcasts. The point is to keep you away from threshold. The idea is that if your HR spikes towards threshold or above, then are you still really doing tempo/SST even though the wattage is the same?
I’m trying to decide on whether to do a traditional base this winter or a sweet spot/tempo type base based on Overton or Neal’s philosophy. Last spring I did a Seiler type polarized base. I did 10-13 hours, almost all long slow distance under 120bpm. On Saturday’s, I did a 3 hour group ride with maybe 20-30 minutes of threshold, some SST, and a bunch of Z2. That works out to around a 90/10 distribution. I bumped my FTP by 25 points and broke all my key Strava PRs by about 15%.
Exactly this. I posted the results of a MAP ramp test and an HR step test on Steve’s forum, and apparently they suggested that 85%maxHR was fine as a ceiling for me.
For sure. Based on my understanding, this is especially important if you skew fast twitch muscle fibers, as these are the ones that produce lactate and tire quicker.
So @batwood14, I’m curious as how your training with Steve has evolved? Still just long tempo/SS stuff, or have you gone through any build or sharpening cycles?
Thanks for all you have shared so far.
It’s taken me 20 years to realize that you’re right. Raw power is great, it wins races, but it never gets the chance to try unless the rider has flexible midrange power. Midrange power (area under the power curve) much more attainable. I think top-level athletes are trained this way, but raw power gets all the press.
I have a little confusion to voice here…
I feel like… if i’m advancing my FTP closer and closer to my VO2 max, and I continue to ride at sweet spot of whatever 80-92% FTP, Shouldn’t my “sweet spot” zone be also getting closer to my VO2 Max? And the closer I am to my VO2 Max, the more it’s going to hurt… the harder i’ll be breathing and the more oxygen i’ll be needing to get to my legs per minute…
so Then I want to raise my VO2 max, so that sweet spot finally feels comfortable again right??
Yeah that’s mostly right, though I don’t think the idea is that sweet spot will hurt more and more, assuming that the hurting is the limiter (aka the concentration of H+ ions resulting from excess pyruvate). When you raise the percentage of VO2max you can work at while still riding in your “sweet spot” zone, it means you are able to do a greater percentage of that work aerobically, which results in more pyruvate utilization and relatively lower H+ ion concentrations at a given workload. So theoretically sweet spot will still hurt the same no matter what percentage of VO2max at which you are working. Eventually, though, you will need to raise that VO2max ceiling in order to elevate your SS zone because it is limited by your VO2max.
I’ll keep replying to myself, it went well the first time around.
I did some training since my tests in Dec 2019:
Basically 4 weeks of 3 times a week some longer tempo/SS at 85%->90% of threshold. One easier week afterwards (although I did some running on the 1st and 2nd of Feb). Back at it with 5 weeks consisting of 1 short VO2Max interval + 2 SS sessions 85-94% of threshold. The last weekend was easy and I did some testing this week.
The ramp test saw me improve to 296 W (+7 W compared to Dec). Not much but I hit my max heart rate and stopped when I felt like suffocating (loud wheezing). I continued with the 30 min aerobic test so that the protocol would be same like last time. I averaged 263 watts with average 149 bpm (81.8% of max) and tried to reproduce the cadence from last time (not dropping too much). Improvement of 15 watts, not bad!
Moreover, I persuaded myself to do a longer ftp test two days later - Kolie Moore’s ftp test. Did 307 W for 40 minutes. Have I kept it down a little (the last 5 minutes) I could have continued to 45 minutes but probably not much more. I didn’t think I could do 40 min with average 300 W but in retrospect the first ten minutes was too low probably. But most importantly this test showed me what is my problem and muscle endurance isn’t it (after this solid block of training). I had to lower my cadence at two occasions because my breathing became very laboured. Legs were okish even towards the end at a higher wattage. Overall, I liked the test a lot and although legs were tired afterwards, the longer SS sessions during the block were worse. It is also a confidence booster for more difficult workouts!
Whatever my garmin edge says about my VO2Max being in the 1st percentile it just simply isn’t good enough. I plan to proceed by adding more Z2 work and upping the volume. My training camp got cancelled but it is getting warmer outside.
Sorry for the very long post. Hopefully someone will find it useful and won’t be afraid to try this approach himself.
Great read, thanks for sharing!
Good stuff, thanks!
2x60 @ 94% - impressive! Thanks for sharing this training block.
Must admit, that one was a little over the top. I couldn’t do a proper strength session in the evening. But 90-92% seemed doable!
This really makes sense to me. I started with 3 x 20mins at 88% FTP and 85% HR but could only hold it for 5 mins so stepped down and did Round Bald -1 which is 3 x 15mins at 85% FTP and I managed to hold this so I will build it up from there. It now actually feels like sweet spot training probably should feel and is doable without killing myself.
Remember this can take months or even years to be able to get to 90%. So don’t get discouraged, the other way you can measure is being able to hold it for longer too.
Looks like a solid plan, and I have been doing something quite similar. I think its been working quite well for me too. The last 4-5 weeks have been the most volume/consistent training for me, so hopefully I can keep chugging along.
Nice! Let us know how the tests went including comparison to previous tests when you are done with them next week.
Thought I’d give an update. Kind of a mixed bag this week. Some issues I hope I have sorted out, but I’ll find out in the coming weeks. Felt super good the week of the 23rd (Polar Bear +1 felt easy), so I upped my FTP from 275 to 285. As you can see, Pendleton didn’t go so well. Cooling was inadequate and I didnt make it very far (bought two Lasko fans and I think that problem is now solved.)
Ramp test gave me a 278 and I bombed Kolie’s test. That leads to the second problem, bike posture. Quads blew up. Its been a problem of mine, but I thought I was engaging the glutes better, but I guess not. Dug through some threads and I think my hips were super tight (sit like 12hrs a day…)and I need to focus on my pelvic position. Going to leave my FTP at 280 and see how things go. Putting Lamarck early next week just to verify. I’m pretty excited for the next couple of blocks.
Very good point!
As much as it would suck, especially indoors … it sure sounds like the “Hour of Power” is the most accurate threshold/FTP test.
