Strength Training

Training
1286

One thing to keep in mind is that regardless of “interference”, doing more work requires more recovery, no matter what you are doing. This is especially the case when the work you do directly causes muscle damage - strength training is a different beast than aerobic exercise and combining them means more recovery. Let’s say you don’t do any endurance exercise, only lift, you certainly cannot do legs at the gym every day. Twice is ideal, some people do three days, but most people end up injured doing legs three days a week. The point I’m making is that I don’t bother with interference I already know that strength training recovery and adaptation takes a lot of time even if you aren’t doing other exercise. Adding endurance exercise means more recovery time because it’s more work you just have to accept that and plan your training accordingly. In your case - running - you are dealing with eccentric contractions and impact at foot strike that causes microscopic damage, so even more recovery than you would need if you were lifting and pedaling.

Regarding weights, I would recommend doing both Bulgarian split squats and single leg leg press. Both are unilateral, both work quads and glutes, but the BSS develops balance and knee stability while the leg press, due to the fixed path, allows increased weight and thus greater force production. Doing both is very complementary. As single leg exercises I would not go below 8 reps (higher weight can strain the knee and, during the eccentric phase, can risk a hamstring or glute strain) and use this regimen: most weight you can use for 8 reps (leaving 1-2 reps in reserve) with a slow and purposefully controlled eccentric phase, increase the reps over time (weeks/months) until you get to 15, then drop back to 8 and increase the weight a bit, repeat. Distance and hill running benefit more from increasing the fatigue resistance of fast twitch 2A fibers than learning how to recruit greater numbers of 2x fibers and this will accomplish that. I’m not saying only do these, there are plenty of bilateral exercises with greater weight that you can/should do, just offering these as good ones for running.

If you decide to experiment with endurance exercise after lifting (same day, not necessarily immediately after), you might find cycling or stair climber to be easier to tolerate and recover from than running since there isn’t additional stress from eccentric contraction and impact, and you still get cardio time in. Or you might find that what works best is running after lifting one day, stair climber or easy pedaling after lifting on the other. Gotta find what works best for you. Regardless of the form of aerobic exercise after lifting, you have to have your dedicated longer running days, and day to day and week to week your legs might feel terrible, but this isn’t about being ready in a day or in a week, it’s long term, both 35 weeks out and months/years thereafter. Every week should have one or two recovery days, and every so often you should have a recovery week.

FWIW, IMO the treadmill should only be used if you cannot run outside. In that case it is clearly better than not running at all. The issue I have with it is that the motorized, posteriorly moving tread reduces the amount of force your leg muscles have to produce to maintain a given pace. You’ve probably seen people who set the speed at 10 mph (6 min mile) and their legs are flying for the next 20 or 30 minutes, but they can’t last more than a minute or two trying to run that pace on the road as their muscles have to do a lot more work than they are used to doing.

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1287

Wow! What a wonderfully detailed answer. Thanks so much.

1288

Ya the first day’s squats definitely had me feeling lots of parts of my hamstrings I haven’t felt since I last lifted. I did my second day of lifting yesterday morning, and it’s already not affecting me as severely.

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1289

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This seems like the simplest schedule I’ve managed to come up with.

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1291

This is like a base, build, specialty programming for a competitive powerlifter or weightlifter. Hypertrophy → Strength/Power → Peak. This usually correlations with progressively lower rep ranges and higher loads. If you did low-reps forever, your strength gains would eventually taper off, limited by your muscle mass and volume tolerance (the fatigue to stimulus ratio is terrible). If you did higher reps forever, you’d end up like these bodybuilders, gawking at the strength of a climber half their size. The periodization attempts to maximize all the components of improved 1RM (see below) prior to a competition. If your sport does not revolve around a 1RM, there’s much less to be gained from 1RM’ing and quite a lot that can be lost. I haven’t 1RM’d anything in years.

Idk when leg press would be programmed alone, other than a “we don’t trust you to not injure yourself squatting” scenario. Leg press is a great leg developer but it is somewhat divorced from functional movement. Physique athletes can get away with leg press as a solo act. There was an interesting study where they compared leg press to squat on matched sets/reps, and while both groups got stronger, jump performances were significantly higher in he squat group. They aren’t 1:1 replacements of each other, even if the movement is quite similar. Squat is not well-suited for high-rep hypertrophy work (form tends to crumble after 12+ reps), while leg press totally is—you can go to failure and then some with less systemic fatigue and risk of injury. Meanwhile the skill of squat is more useful than the skill of leg press (for most applications at least), so it makes sense to put it in the rep range than develops technique better.

I’m not familiar with cleans only appearing later in a season, given how technical the skill is. Sounds like a recipe for injury. You’d want to keep some amount of cleans in rotation to rehearse the skill. The thing that will change is the rep ranges for clean. But for sports that aren’t weightlifting, there’s less of a need to dip into the super low numbers, other than on Max Day. One of the big differences most sports have compared to to weight/powerlifting is that they still need power and speed and vertical for practice. So you’ll see more emphasis on these aspects year round.

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I tend to think single leg work is a great accessory to their associated lifts, to be worked on in parallel, throughout the season. You can see where I put them in above, very similar to the link you shared. I don’t do truly heavy (low rep) single leg work because:

  1. For stuff like bulgarians and SL RDLs, the (my) rate limiter is balance; these are typically programmed in the 8-15 rep range. Quadzilla is one of the few athletes I’ve seen with the skill and coordination to do insanely loaded Bulgarians at low reps. He’s mastered the Bulgarian the way other athletes might master a clean, presumably because the lift is very beneficial to his discipline of sprint cycling.
  2. For stuff like single leg press, hamstring curls, leg extensions where there is almost zero technique involved, I just burn out the muscle between 10-20 @ 0 RIR, focusing on hypertrophy. It’s a complement to squat and DL, which will almost never go above 10 reps or below 1-2 RIR. I’d also consider stuff in the 5-10 range for leg press specifically. My thoughts on SL leg press for cycling have evolved over this past year, hence my elevation of the leg press to Big Lift status above.

I could see cutting out single-leg work to make time for other things that might be more competition-relevant as you near the season. For most people single leg work is aimed at rounding out strength and coordination imbalances. In my case I have a severe left/right imbalance downstream of old knee injuries. So fixing my right quad is a constant priority.

Or the opposite could be true! There are disciplines where heavy single leg might be something to focus on for sport-specific strength. Like I mentioned above, Quadzilla drills heavy Bulgarians quite frequently, which no doubt help him in his sprint discipline.

Everything is highly dependent on what your goals are. I think people often make the mistake of cargo-culting whatever the powerlifters/MMA fighters/crossfitters do in the gym (because they’re so strong!!!) without thinking critically about what aspects of these regimes aren’t optimal for general purposes, but rather the specific requirements of the respective sports.

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1293

To me, clean = the first part of an olympic clean + jerk. The bar path, hip drive, and ATG pull under the bar are pretty technical and stuff starts to break down at high weights. There’s 5 phases in the lift which have their own accessories for practice. Are you power or hang cleaning? That’s a bit different, and yeah, those are less technical.

Cleaning is also fun, so I would not discount it as much when you try to optimize your workout, if it’s something you enjoy.

Do I have it in the strength range? It’s Rx’d as “3-4 sets of 10-20 @ 0-1 RIR” but I would also do 5-10 as well. It’s a lift where I think I can discern an impact on my cycling; I talked to a coach whose experience matched mine—he said that he didn’t feel some of his leg work had as much impact on his cycling until he started doing some single leg work.

My thoughts on the leg press have evolved some and I’m mulling over the idea that the skill of pressing hard with one leg while very flexed at the hip might have some benefits specific to cycling. The position of most leg presses is very unnatural—one of the reasons it is so lampooned in the non-physique athletic community (and evidence suggests this bias is somewhat founded). However cycling is also a very unnatural position, which isn’t too dissimilar to the leg press—very flexed at the hips. It might the only sport where there’s some functional qualities to leg press (more specifically the single leg variant).

[EDIT: I was thinking about this more in my lifting session today and my muscle group that really seems to protest during the single leg variant of leg press is gluteus medius, the major hip stabilizer. If you think of the mechanics of cycling, you will get better force transfer when your hips are stable. This could explain my and the aforementioned coach’s observations that leg work in the gym seemed to be unlocked by single-leg work. If this is true, single leg work is in fact a lot more important than most programs assume.]

The elevation to Big Lift is somewhat experimental, and I noted above that I think it could be folded into one of the other two days. You also have to understand that I was coming from a place of strong bias against the leg press and have since started to begrudgingly accept that it might be useful based on my own experience.

I feel like my program is very light on dedicated core work. 1 dedicated core exercise per session. 3 sets, largely at the appropriate rep range for the particular exercise. Most cycling lifting programs I see do a 3x3 ab circuit, which I’ve certainly had programmed for me in other sports. The thing is that abs are often an afterthought, cranked out as fast as possible at the end of a lift. I think if you’re loading your torso with compounds, you can get away with less core, especially if you load the core work like any other lift and train close to failure.

Core is just a different beast when it comes to rep ranges. It’s almost like the range got shifted upwards. 8 reps might be considered low for core. A lot of core work involves spinal flexion, possibly rotation, which puts the vertebrae in an vulnerable position. So you need to balance loading the core enough with the risks. Stuff where the spine is in a neutral, braced position can be pushed more (eg, weighted sit up). There are other reasons higher ranges are generally used, but truthfully I haven’t thought too hard about it and just osmosed the conventional ranges over the years. If there’s one place to be risk adverse, it’s with stuff involving the spine.

1294

Hey Samus - regarding bilateral leg press, have you or your coach performed the press with a low and extremely narrow stance (feet 4-6 inches apart)? I agree re: single leg leg press but found that placing the feet very, very close together was amazing for pedaling power.

1295

I have not tried this but it makes sense. We have some evidence that foot position on press doesn’t matter as much for overall hypertrophy. So your observation would lend some credit to leg press being a useful skill for cycling. I’ll give it a go sometime. Also see this edit I added above:

1297

I’d drop the AMRAP. It’s excess volume and fatigue which is ok when you’re only lifting and probably have the next day off or on other body parts but for cycling then yeah…

1298

You’re doing 11 sets on your quads/glutes. I’ve been lifting for a decade and that’s what I do for hypertrophy, with 3-4 days to recover each muscle group. No way would I give that to someone who lifts a few weeks/months a year.

For strength, drop to 1-2 sets per session of 4 reps or less, then for everything else drop to 2 sets. Consider clustering your deadlifts and squats together so you’re grooved into the motor pattern by doing a heavy set or two then backoff sets for some volume, which is a powerlifting staple.

After that, how you approach it depends what you want to get out of this. If you’re looking for both strength and hypertrophy, keep the reps in the range you feel you’re getting close to your muscular limit (within 3 RIR) but not aerobically or neurally taxed. Guessing this may be in the 6-10 range on single leg, and 5-8 for squat and deadlift. You’re not getting DOMS from novelty, you’re getting it because you are destroying yourself. Just like in cycling, we can see faster improvements from increasing the program intensity, but we also risk a massive dropoff in compliance/adherence at some point. Leave some effort in the tank for next time. You want to look for a reasonable minimum dose that fits into your overall goals right now, not just the maximum you can barely squeak by with.

If you want overall health, add in a push and a pull, and some hip abduction. I think hanging raises are silly, switch for lying on a bench.

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1300

2 sets per exercise, so 6 sets. And a single set for strength is usually enough if you’re looking to reduce fatigue. Additionally, what you’re doing out of the gym can have an effect too but since I have no info there, I can’t comment on that.

I’m not really sure what this means in terms of programming goals? Or… strip weight off what, the bar? Your body?

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1302

I’d reorient your goals, then. Lift in such a way that doesn’t add muscle but improves strength for the muscle you have. I think the hypertrophy volume you’re doing doesn’t make any sense if that’s your goal. Adding in “torque” work on the bike to an already intense lifting program is a guarantee for burnout, IME.

If you’re a cyclist first, then prioritize cycling and make lifting work in service of those goals. If you’re doing both, accept that you’ll have to make tradeoffs to lift the way you want to and then ride the way you want to. But hey it’s your program so do what you want, though you did ask for input.

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1303

Can I ask what your percentiles are on DL and squat? I’m reading between the lines here, but if the load for triples doesn’t scare you, I would guess you are either a seasoned powerlifter or you’re still at a point in your training where you could be getting decent strength gains in the 5-8 rep range (which would be far less systemically fatiguing). If you’re trying to avoid hypertrophy, then you don’t need as much volume.

If you’re truly at a point where you need to minimize the weight gains, I’d consider moving DL out of the program. At least, as you’ve programmed it, I see a lot of downsides. It’s one of the most systemically fatiguing lifts in the book, and on your AMRAP you’re doing it in a very systemically fatiguing rep range. It also is a big mass-gainer, and the proportions of what it develops aren’t the best for cycling if you really progress the lift (a lot of back/erector/trap). I truly believe most cyclists would stand to benefit from regular DL… up until a point (and 95+% of cyclists are not at that point). I’d nix pulling from the ground and switch over to RDLs (or straight leg—it’s a continuum) for more focus on hamstrings. You might also consider BB hip thrusts, maybe.

A trick I’ve heard from climbers is to eat less protein during strength training to avoid the mass gains. This is all anecdote, though.

A lot of systemic fatigue comes from axial loading plus the bracing needed to stabilize an exercise with high degrees of freedom, along with mental fatigue from coordinating a compound movement. If—after modifying to a 2-3x5+ —you still find the systemic fatigue is interfering with cycling, you could look at Smith or hack machines to reduce degrees of freedom. Belt squat will reduce axial load. Leg press reduces both. All come with their own tradeoffs.

You might try:

A
GPP
Squat 2-3x5-8
*Hip Thrusts/Belt Squat 2-3x10+ (maybe… might be too much volume still)
Barbell 1L RDL 3x15
SS Hanging Raises / Pull up 3x15

B
GPP
RDL 2-3x5-8
Leg Press/Hack/Smith 2-3x10+ (maybe… might be too much volume still)
Bulgarian Split 3x15
SS Russian Twists / Dip 3x15

*I’m spitballing a little here, but you might consider another squat accessory in this slot and rotating it with a DL accessory. Right now the program is 50/50 squat/DL. Squat is a more important lift to cyclists than DL and does a pretty good job hitting the posterior chain on its own. Most cyclists have a neglected posterior and can get some easy gains from a 50/50 split shoring up posterior chain engagement. Once you’re past that point, I might think critically about which part of cycling / pedal stroke is the weakest and needs the most attention.

I have the opposite opinion, as someone who has more recently switched to hanging leg raises after a lifetime of leg raises/candlesticks on a bench. Modified candlestick is the only thing that comes close to proper leg raises, imo, and it’s more awkward (a lot of strain on the shoulders to control the eccentric). For leg raises you just have to get past the point where hip flexors are the rate-limiter, and that’s not a bad thing for a cyclist to address. Grip limitations can be solved with straps, which was the ah-hah moment for me. Even if you have the grip strength, the straps help you mentally focus on the core work.

Either way, just see what gives you the best core stimulus. For me it’s definitely the hanging variety.

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1305

That’s helpful context. Fwiw, powerlifters typically only train in the low rep ranges periodically. The systemic fatigue is bad and the injury risk is high. You could try to figure out how to work lower reps into a periodized plan. But again, idk, injury risk. My lifting buddy will occasionally do doubles/triples—I never touch them. You can guess which one of us gets injured more than the other (and that’s saying something, because I’m the one with the history of orthopedic surgeries).

I don’t think the single leg exercises are hurting you as much, as Bulgarians and SL RDLs tend to be limited by coordination more than strength. I don’t know anyone who can really load SL RDLs—glute medius will fail before the hams get fatigued. But it depends on how skilled you are at these lifts. [EDIT: That said, I find Bulgarians very mentally fatiguing, like every other human on the planet.]

It’s the 3x10 of DL and squat that I would exchange for accessories that have less systemic fatigue (on top of swapping the 3+ rep days for 5+ rep days).

EDIT 2:

Further thoughts. If you’re in the 87th percentile on deadlift and you’re worried about mass gains to the point that you’re willing to sacrifice full-body strength, then you really have no business pulling from the floor. The dirty secret: deadlift is not as good of a ham/glute developer as people make it out to be. It’s the jack of all trades, master of none, as far as the posterior chain is concerned. Still an important, functional skill to have, and probably one of the most satisfying lifts in terms of absolute man/womanhood. But at the 87th percentile one’s posterior upper body will be more developed than any cyclist needs. (And to those reading this wondering if they should stop deadlifting—go see how your maxes compare. Most cyclists are nowhere near the point where this is a concern.)

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1306

Last week I dug up an old training log from 1993-94 when I was going nuts at the gym - high intensity and high volume three days a week plus riding. I noticed a fantastic exercise I had completely forgotten about and started doing again last week: smith machine pistol squats. No balance or coordination required, no cheating by pushing off with a rear leg like with the lunge and, with full flexion it blasts both glutes and quads to a degree that other exercises can’t touch. Cool thing is you can just use the bar or you can throw plates on it and work really hard if you want. Tip: emphasize the heel not the ball of the foot.

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1307

Are there any well-established strength standards for cyclists/endurance athletes? E.g. squat 1.5 x bodyweight, horizontal jump 1 x body height etc. And how would these differ from recommendations for the general population just looking for health benefits of strength and power training?

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1308

Here are a few. The first one isn’t cycling specific. But you can put in your weight, age, and see where you rank (beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc). It’s quite handy to cross check age standards vs weight standards.

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1309

In my experience, it takes more than 10 minutes. If I ride immediately after a leg press session, it takes about an hr before my legs feel ok. Same true if I ride the next day.

1310

According to that trainer road chart, I have sprinter strength, but my cycling goals are all endurance related - generally 100+ mile races. Does that mean the strength is hampering me, or just some type of byproduct that doesn’t negatively impact my endurance but also helps my sprinting?

1311

The latter :+1:

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