I just finished TR 6 Week Base Polarized Plan (High Volume) and my impression is that easy days, Wed, Thu are still too hard. Usually those workouts have a power target between 50-75% FTP, with most being between 65-75%.
I found that if I followed up doing those after a hard Tue workout, my legs were still very sore on Fri, making it difficult to complete the 2nd hard workout. After a couple weeks, I decided to reduce the target power on those rides to something between 50-60% FTP.
I also reduced the target power on the Sat workout since it would also be going upwards of 75% FTP, which too me it also seemed too much after a hard day on Friday.
I remember listening Fast Talk podcasts and coach Trevor usually says that easy days should be easy, that Z2 rides done at VT1 (LT1), around 75-80% FTP, are very powerful and must be done in moderation (once a week max) since they do cause a lot of fatigue.
Has anyone felt the same way? What are your thoughts and how have you adjusted?
Also, one of the side effects of Adaptive Training is that when you reduce the power, it usually thinks you have struggled and tends to adjust the following hard workout by adding more rest time between intervals.
I donât have answers but have some questions that others may need to know in order to address your issue.
What method did you use to establish your FTP, and how confident in that result are you?
How was your experience in the âHardâ workouts and what might have been a typical Intensity Survey rating for them?
Yes, this is exactly as intended. If you reduced the power, and aligned with your comments, you DID âstruggleâ and werenât able to complete the workouts at prescribed at the 100% Workout Intensity setting.
In the future, if you know you are wanting a different workout intensity, itâs best to use the Alternates tool, and swap to a more desired workout of your choice. Doing that, and completing the workout at 100% WI should work better. But noting that, if you drop the workout to a low enough Level, it may still have the end result of AT dropping pending workouts. But that depends on more factors than we know at this time.
What method did you use to establish your FTP, and how confident in that result are you?
Ramp Test done on first day. FTP seemed to be right, even when looking at my eFTP on intervals.icu
How was your experience in the âHardâ workouts and what might have been a typical Intensity Survey rating for them?
Tuesdayâs usually felt like I could do an extra or even a few more intervals at the end . Thursdayâs were more challenging in a way that I usually felt like the right amount at the end. Both were never All out efforts, as they shouldnât be at this phase of training.
Yes, this is exactly as intended. If you reduced the power, and aligned with your comments, you DID âstruggleâ and werenât able to complete the workouts at prescribed at the 100% Workout Intensity setting.
I understand it is working as intended but if the workout intensity is too high in the first place then you are not âstrugglingâ but riding at a more âpolarizedâ intensity.
In the future, if you know you are wanting a different workout intensity, itâs best to use the Alternates tool, and swap to a more desired workout of your choice. Doing that, and completing the workout at 100% WI should work better. But noting that, if you drop the workout to a low enough Level, it may still have the end result of AT dropping pending workouts. But that depends on more factors than we know at this time.
Got it, I kind did this as well, replace the ride with more appropriate intensity ones. I also did some âfreeâ rides on Zwift and matched then with the ride on that day.
I agree with Chad, if your FTP is set correctly (and it sounds like it is) then just use alternates to choose lower level Endurance rides for your âEasyâ days. That will set your PL to the right level for what you want. You are âstrugglingâ the current level workouts in that itâs not how hard you want to ride, thatâs no slight. Just get the system to find the right level for you. Or choose alternate at the right level.
From my understanding it shouldnât have any affect on your Hard day workouts as they are a different training zone.
I think that is the crux and is why I asked the two initial questions. From reading the main experience topic, I have not seen too many others with comments like yours. Itâs possible there is an issue with your test and/or how that relates to the functional ranges of your POL 3 Zone splits.
TLDR: Donât worry about reducing the intensity of your recovery days. I would strive for the long endurance ride to be around 70-75%, though.
I did POL Base MV back-to-back (so 12 weeks) but extended most workouts to 2 hours and added a 2-hour endurance day in the middle, so I was riding 10-12 hours per week. I found the endurance days at 70-75% FTP to be about right, even on the long weekend ride. I got a 3% FTP bump after the first base period and a 2% increase after the second. I never felt totally wiped after any of the VO2 or threshold days.
How is your recovery? Mine is not very good, which is one of the reasons I opted for POL Base instead of SSB this season. I rarely get more than six hours of sleep and know that my lack of recovery limits my ability to adapt more / faster. POL Base MV struck that perfect balance for me.
Related to your comment about reducing the intensity of the easy days, there was a podcast a while ago (maybe FasCat) that talked about one of their athleteâs successes following a POL plan. Some of his recovery days each week kept power below HR - thatâs an easy ride for sure!
In the end, as I understand it, POL plans force adaptations by working the threshold and VO2 âsystemsâ and through the long ride. The easy days should exist to get the blood flowing, flush out the muscles, and force some adaptations, but not like the âbig three.â
I was doing 9-13hrs back in Dec and Jan, but I did take 8 days OFF the bike before starting the Base POL HV. I donât think the Hard days were too hard for me, once I reduced the intensity on the easy days, I was able to go along fine.
My recovery is OK I guess, for someone working in a desk for 8hrs a day + family and house chores, but I do try to get 8hrs of sleep a night, some days I get less others a get more, really depends on the week.
Personally Iâve been doing a lot of z2 and generally keep it around 65% although Iâll do workouts with stretches at 70%. From my understanding from guys like Kolie Moore, there really isnât a benefit in doing upper level z2. That said if Iâm riding outside Iâm likely to do 75-80% for long rides but if Iâm inside on erg I try to stay disciplined in a mid z2 range
I wonder if AT is being constrained by the plan. Say your plan has scheduled a 90 min endurance workout, once your PL reaches a certain level it starts pushing up near to tempo in order to maintain progression for you. Whereas really you might benefit more from increasing the volume/ length of the ride while maintaining intensity.
Choosing an alternate of equal PL but longer duration might help.
I think the problem here is volume, and the lack of recovery that is inherent in High Volume plans.
TR are pretty clear that HV plans are suitable for only a relative few cyclists, and most should go with the LV or MV plans.
A mistake that many people make is to take their outside rides (I can ride 10 hours outside, so I can do a 10 hour plan inside as well), while forgetting that the constant effort required on the indoor trainer (no micro-coasting for traffic or corners, etc) is considerably harder on the body than riding outside.
My suggestion would be to go with the MV polarized plans, and add some recovery rides if you want. This is not far off what you are doing anyway (50-60% of FTP), but it is better to hit all the key workouts of a properly structured MV plan, than being unable to complete workouts on the HV plan.
It seems a limitation of AT is that there is a cap on volume, so as you progress through the PLâs it has no option but to increase intensity of the easy days, where perhaps a normal coach might increase volume. I find long hours at 75% incredibly fatiguing when done day after day. For me riding around 60-65% is far more sustainable.
65-75 %, that is the intended zone, endurance. Most endurance workouts vary power so that you have small recovery valleys in between intervals where you are at 70â75 % FTP. Endurance rides below 2 hours should not be physically very taxing, so if you cannot recover for the next hard workout, you need to reduce volume.
I think the likely issue is that your body cannot handle the volume. Iâd drop to mid-volume, perhaps even low-volume and then manually add rides if you can handle it. The margin for error with high-volume plans is razor thin: you must mostly nail things like sleep, nutrition and recovery. If you have too much stress, you canât recover, which means you are (non-functionally) overloading like you are now.
For example, I noticed that I need two days off per week. I tried adding an endurance ride on Fridays, but I basically dug a hole for myself. Funnily enough I was able to handle quite a bit of additional training volume, provided that I took two days off.
Agreed.
(For the record, I initially did the same mistake when I started structured training. Before we had kids, I would often spend one day of the weekend on the bike, 8â10 hours. So how hard can 10 hours of training be?!? )
I think your legs are telling you that your limiter is your muscular endurance. The Tuesday workout is a bit too hard if it takes until Friday to recover. The endurance workouts in between are hard enough that you arenât recovering.
Alex, I think your solution is to recover before your 2nd hard workout. You could do a bit less on the hard workout. You could try lowering your FTP 10%. Make sure to have a full day off between hard workouts. Try the MV plan. There are a ton of ways to skin this cat.
I think after month or two you would eventually build up your muscular endurance such that you could complete the plan and probably be a lot fitter!
Bit of a sweeping statement, they are equal for some or the oppsite of what you said. Personally I donât find any difference, in fact 10 hours inside is normally easier and slightly less TSS than outside due to the higher NP outside.
Having said that it might be harder for some depending on where they are riding outside and on their setup and cooling inside.
Yeap. 65% was the cap I was given for Z1 when I was coached. It seemed ridiculously easy even though I was doing 10 - 12 hours a week but to keep the quality sessions, Z3, quality it needed to be. It was only a few months of this and then the Z1 could go up to 70%, I finish the POL often with the Z1 sessions with a IF of 0.72 / 0.73.
I agree with you. I currently use the mid volume polarized plan as well and have modified it so that I workout five days and have two days off. The days off are always before my hard workouts. So I can do the hard workouts fresh and adjust the easy days to get to my desired volume.
Went through that myself recently. In my case it was stress and fatigue. Not just from the bike but also not getting enough sleep. Not eating right. Working 10 hour days. Adding extra volume. It all takes a mental and physical toll. Getting the right right amount and quality of rest goes a long way.
I decided to make the hard days a bit harder and quickly noticed that I could really feel on the endurance days when I was going too hard. Like the fatigue from the hard workouts would immediately be noticeable if I was at too high of an power during the endurance rides. The whole thing with polarized is to make the easy days easy and the hard days hard. I never really bought into it all until having this experience where I realized I could pedal for a long time at the easy pace even if my legs were sore from the hard workout because I just kept the easy pace below the point where I could feel that fatigue.
So I just decrease the target power if Iâm feeling that fatigue until I get to a point where I can pedal without feeling it. Usually that means the day after a hard workout is more of a recovery pace and I find Iâm able to hit the target power 2 days after the hard day. But again, I did make the hard days harder.
I would lower your volume from high-volume to mid-volume. It seems to me you are doing too much. Make sure that you recover well and really have some room left.
Out of curiosity: did you go for a Polarized block, because you thought/experienced that a Sweet Spot block at HV was too much? Personally, I donât find Polarized blocks easier than Sweet Spot blocks. (I use and like both, so I am not arguing against either. It is just an observation from my own experience.)
It tends to be us amateurs who are always trying to ride at the upper boundaries. I tend to see the 75% max HR figure as a cap not a target. If Iâm going up a hill and Iâm heading towards the cap I back off, but my averages come out nearer 60% max HR averages with my max around the cap.
Yesterday did a 1.5 hour ride yesterday and average 55% max 74% Of max HR. On Saturday a 5.5 hour ride at average 61% max 76% of max HR.
Some say they are boring, and indoors likely true. But outdoors is such a joy amongst the scenery and wild life and quiet lanes. Plus my average speed at 60% max HR is now the same as my average speed at 75% max HR a year ago. The aerobic engine is growing.
)