To be clear, when I’m training VO2max, I don’t ever measure VO2max, LOL. Not that kind of coach. But I am seeking a physiological change that will then lead to marked performance gains as measured by field testing.
1 Like
For the vo2 experts…
If the goal of vo2 max intervals isn’t necessarily to hit the highest power target, but is to gain the most time at vo2 max with the highest oxygen uptake, generating the greatest stimulus to the heart muscle and other things that I’ve seen mentioned in this thread and on podcasts…wouldn’t it follow that the best vo2 max workout would actually be done cross training with either rowing or skate skiing?
I think it’s common knowledge that those disciplines hit higher vo2 max numbers because they recruit more muscles (back & shoulders specifically) and cycling is somewhat limited because it’s just legs/glutes and particularly so if those become fatigued.
Obviously you’d lose out on the specificity, but I’m still curious if it may be beneficial to incorporate a rowing vo2 max workout into these blocks, especially at the end where your legs might be blown out from the fatigue of the whole block.
1 Like
Certainly not expert, done way less VO2max training than should.
Anyway, had same thought, tried to put it into practice over this winter (rowerg + double poling on skierg, not actual skiing). Unfortunately learned that upper body strength and endurance is not on par with legs i.e. I will tire before getting anywhere near VO2max state. Especially considering recovery phase in those sports movements. From respiratory system perspective, best I could describe it as Sweetspot/threshold level breathing.
For now I continue using SkiErg (around tempo level), in hope to get strong enough to get some VO2max time.
It isn’t like there is no benefit to your legs for doing vo2 bike workouts.
At this level specificity is king. If you are traveling and all you got is some other machine, fine. But if you have a bike, ride the bike.
1 Like
Absolutely, not questioning that bike is most specific way for cyclist to raise VO2max.
Motivation is more about developing upper body. Dragging heavy weights from one corner to another is boring for me, so SkiErg it is. I am just hoping that some day I can use it for VO2max workouts from time to time during cycling base phases. But right now, I am not there yet.
Yes, for central adaptations* … assuming you can do the other modality sufficiently well.
So, if cross-country skiing could potentially be 10% more effective as cycling as a VO2 Max stimulus, but having limited experience and T-Rex arms means you’re only able to spend 80% as much time at sufficiently stimulative VO2 uptake, you’re at a net loss.
*peripheral adaptations in the legs are probably about the same for both cross-country skiing and cycling, I suspect. I guess it depends on how much of a contribution the arms make when skiing. Obvs the peripheral adaptations in the arms from skiing are of limited use for cycling
2 Likes
So I just did my first really condensed VO2 block about a month ago (10 workouts in 14 days). I then had 5 days that were moderate cause I was going to try for a couple more workouts the next weekend but I was too fatigued to do them. Then I had a week of recovery (but with 8 hours of easy endurance riding on that weekend). Last week I did an FTP workout on Thursday with 3-6x10min where the directions were to start at the old FTP and go up if it feels good. I ended up doing 5 at ~8W higher than previous. Then a hard but not long 30/30 workout on Sunday. Then this morning (Thursday) I did the same FTP workout and did 4x10 but at ~15-20W higher than the old FTP or about the same RPE as last week.
So to summarize that, ~2.5 weeks after my last VO2 workout I did 5x10min @ +8W, then a week later did 4x10min @ +17W.
5 Likes
Of all the zones, Z5 is definitely the worst in this aspect. If I did my VO2 workouts in traditional Z5 (according to TrainingPeaks is 105-120%) I would barely hit threshold HR and have just started breathing heavy by the end of the interval. I recently was doing my 3min intervals at 140-150% and my 4min at 130-140%.
1 Like
How do you set your FTP and what kind of a power profile do you have to be able to push 4 minute intervals at 140%? I find 140% @ 4min unusual for peak power, never-mind for repeat intervals.
3 Likes
This is the problem with training plans that do everything based on fixed % of FTP: below threshold it’s probably fine… there are differences when you get into endurance pacing and duration, but tempo/SST/threshold are pretty consistent for most people.
Above threshold? It is VERY individual relative to FTP.
7 Likes
Nothing to do with a training plan or a workout. 140% for 4 minutes is outside of most power curves that I’ve seen. If I’m not mistaken, Coggan has 5 min power max at around 117-120% for Pros. intervals.icu has the 5 min max at 135% based on 60m power, 119% based on eFTP, and 118% based on 20m power. They’ve a pretty large dataset, so I think it’ll be a reasonable figure to go by.
1 Like
Exactly. In 2016 Coggan replaced z5 and z6 (power levels 5 and 6) with iLevels. Apparently TR and a lot of other people didn’t get the memo.
Crazy making to see people still believing, almost 8 years later, in using % ftp above threshold.
2 Likes
Kinda missed my point which was while “averages” may be something, the data set is all over the place and the bell is pretty wide.
I just went through my athletes and for 5 min power I have a range of 110% to 138% of FTP. The bell gets a LOT wider when you get into even shorter duration power ranges.
Not all of those FTPs are with 60min TTE, TTE range is roughly 40-60min. Point is, it’s widely variable, and that’s why workouts above threshold should be individualized and one shouldn’t look at what someone else does and question it based solely on their own experience or broad data set averages. Use FTP for what it’s intended for; don’t try to extrapolate entire power curves based solely off of any single number. 
3 Likes
I didn’t extrapolate anything from FTP, I looked at intervals.icu data - here is top 20% male athletes:
I took the point regarding workouts/plans
I’ll spell it out for you. Go to the link I posted above, the Coggan article on iLevels. Read the section talking about this figure
4 Likes
Appreciate the aggressive reply, maybe grab a snickers bar?
ETA: I’m not questioning or even asking about VO2max intervals at any percentage of FTP. I’m wondering about his power curve and how he’s able to do 140% for 4 mins as it’s highly unusual. Not questioning he can do it, that’s not my place 
Good idea, I’ll have a banana.
It might be unusual, but then I just showed you that 5 min power varies among a 16-athlete sample size from 138% to 110%. He just happens to sit on one end of a bell curve. That’s the problem with averages. I’m not really sure what you’re driving at, otherwise.
Maybe his FTP is set too low? Maybe he hasn’t done FTP development? Maybe he’s a track pursuiter? Maybe he’s lying? Maybe he’s telling the 100% truth with a great FTP number and he just happens to have a really high max aerobic power relative to his FTP. Lots of possibilities.
4 Likes
Is it possible that I end up averaging z4 power (or just a notch above ftp) for my 3-5 min v02 intervals?
Especially when fatigued avg power for me drops considerably (I am not super strong anaerobically)
Breathing is still hard though but avg power somehow leaves me doubt the intervals.
Perhaps there’s also some pacing involved but I try to attack each interval as hard as I think I can sustain.