Speaking specifically to VO2max work (not specifically power development): once you get to the breathing and relative HR/Power we are looking for, you want to stay there. I see that often take about 90s for me, personally, and most people are probably in that neighborhood. So then do you want to stay at that breathing/stimulus level for 30s or do you think 2-4 min would be better? If you’re doing 20 min of work in two minute segments, you might only hit that breathing for 5 min. If you do 20 min of work in 5 min blocks, you can spend 12-13 min breathing like a fish out of water. That’s winning.
Don’t conflate that with 90% max HR. That’s a somewhat poor proxy for what I’m looking for with VO2 work, specifically (again, DIFFERENT than 2-6min power development “MAP” work in my little world here). Pretty common that you might not get much time above 90% max HR especially as you fatigue toward the end of a concentrated VO2 block. Don’t care as long as the breathing is right and you’re giving max efforts.
Side/unrelated note: 2 min max efforts are the hardest thing you can do in endurance sports. Don’t @ me lol.
2 min on 1 min off, can be a really hard workout, but I would guess the quality of those intervals is going to be pretty variable first to last, and it’s going to be really hard to achieve the stimulus that we’re looking for late in the workout due to fatigue. It’d be hard, it’ll help you develop some power and repeatability for 2 min efforts, just don’t think that’s optimal VO2max training.
You’ll probably already know. If you have a 1500w 30s PR, but your FTP is 3wkg, you need aerobic work. If your VO2 Max is 80ml/min/kg and is unlikely to go higher but you’ve almost never ridden over 600 watts and you’ve never even looked at a barbell then doing gym work and workouts aimed at increasing your anaerobic capacity are going to do a lot more for your 5 minute power than trying to eke out further VO2 Max gains.
This is me, well, close as I capped out at 2.7 w/kg for my FTP. Doing extensive and intensive VO2 work (a la time crunched cyclist), gave me the biggest performance boost ever. Agree that it really needs to be done after a solid base and threshold block.
Coming from rowing the 2k distance has a special hatred to me. Never felt as bad as going absolutely all out on one of those efforts. (For reference a 6:30-7m maximal effort) your whole body would be on fire.
except the thing with vo2 training is that you shouldn’t be training power but rather achieving a physiological state, which is why coaches like Kolie and the gang at EC, for example, just say go as hard as you can with each effort, the power is less important than achieving that state. Of course, the power can eventually come up, but it’s not because you were training the power, it’s just the benefit of having done workouts where you get to a vo2 state
@kurt.braeckel very interesting about your emphasis on high cadence (e.g.110+ etc). As someone who’s natural cadence on sweet spot/threshold efforts is usually 80-85 rpm I find I just die super fast at cadences of 100+ . I can do 40 mins at FTP fine, 1 X 60-75 mins at 90% FTP without much trouble at preferred cadence (80-85 rpm).
I tend to do 5x4min or 4x5 min (occasionally 6 X 3min) for v02 intervals (usually around 115% ftp but depends how feel, never use erg mode as have a 'dumb trainer ') which usually comes out about 90rpm…am I losing much by using this lower cadence… alternative is to go at higher cadence but would struggle to even hold FTP for these intervals!
i’m gonna side on doing them at whatever rpm you can, I have an 8 speed bike so I have obvious gaps in my gearing, and so I’m compromising between a gear where I spin fast but don’t get the power as high vs getting the right power at 90-97rpm, so I’ve been opting for the lower rpm and it’s working on so far
I’ve trained with EC as well as used the Time-Crunched Cyclist program from CTS. I think they’re both doing the same thing when it comes to VO2max training, as far as inducing a physiological response. But I do think they’re going about it in different ways and I prefer the CTS method as I can mentally get on board with the efforts. If I go as hard as I can for 5’ using my 2’ power, but only resting 5’, I’m probably going to die on the second interval. The stimulus to fatigue ratio is way too low for me. When I do max 2’ efforts, I’m sometimes resting 10’ between intervals.
I recall one podcast where Kolie and Kyle go into how athletes with high anaerobic capacities respond to certain VO2max workouts. Like I can do 3x10 30-30’s with relative ease because I either recover my anaerobic stores quickly or don’t really deplete them during the workout. When I break that 1’ mark, everything starts to fail, and at 2’, I’m basically a dead man and have to wait about 10’ before I can go again. I can’t build repeatability by doing these 2’ efforts but I found that by doing them, my repeatable 5’ power does go up.
High cadence isn’t “my thing”, I don’t want to take credit for things I blatantly steal from other coaches (Dean Golich, et. al. in this case). Just throwing that out there. Coaches learn from other coaches and most of us don’t have some secret sauce. The difference is HOW we work with our athletes, and WHO we work with, in most cases. I’m not one-size fits all by any stretch.
Anyway, that aside: a few things:
I’ve said this before here, I separate VO2max training and Max Aerobic Power training. In VO2max, I tend to give concentrated doses looking for a physiological response (central adaptation of increased stroke volume).
VO2max training in that light is best served by high cadence in two ways:
Reduces the contractile load on your leg muscles allowing you to do more time/sets/reps with less fatigue. Power may be lower, but that’s a secondary concern here.
Increases the NUMBER of contractions taking place in your legs/lower legs, which increases the skeletal muscle pump effect. This increases venous return, which in turn increases cardiac output, which helps us achieve higher stroke volume.
In “MAP” training as I call it, I throw all that out the window and just go “lay down the watts” and I don’t care how you get there.
How/when/to whom I prescribe that work varies. I usually use MAP work as part of a build (or maintenance for older masters athletes). I usually use VO2max work in concentrated doses because that’s how I think it works best. Doesn’t mean you can’t do a VO2 workout each week.
But again here, I loathe the use of VO2max training for anything in this nebulous “zone 5”, because you can ride in zone 5, and you might not be training VO2max very well at all. Conversely, at the end of a 5x5 VO2max workout, you’re probably not even in zone 5, but you’re sure as still training VO2max. That most VO2max training happens to occur in “zone 5” is coincidental to the fact that that’s probably the maximum power you can sustain for the given interval length. DEscriptive, not PREscriptive.
So… how do you get to manage high cadence?
Train it like anything else. Most of my athletes do quite a bit of leg speed work before VO2max blocks for this very reason. 1 min cadence ramps from 80 to 130rpm holding for 60s at each, Team Sky’s trainer TT warmup, leg speed sprints, stuff like that… all can help you improve leg speed and get you holding higher cadences more comfortably.
My theory on that is that you’re getting good training from the anaerobic input to that 5 min power, and by doing 2min, you’re also crossing that fader of where aerobic power takes over from anaerobic power (this is what makes 2min efforts just pure death IMO.) By training at that point, I would expect a bump in 5 min power as well because you’re effectively training the hardest part of managing power well above threshold - that fader/cutover where most people just blow up. Same reason someone can improve their mile time in running by doing shorter speed work, you’re essentially making that 5min power “feel” easier.
First… I agree with @kurt.braeckel. An 800 raced from the gun is the the most gut wrenching event on the track. Though the last 150 of a 400 on the 4x400 and the fatigue of a hard run steeplechase race are a close second.
Ok… back to the post… When VO2 is stagnant, why hammer more of the same? Revisiting the track analogies… if training for a 2 mile you aren’t doing a lot of mile repeats. You might do 3 and do them @ goal pace or faster. You probably also drop fast 400’s in there too. So if you want to boost up your VO2 I would propose you mix it up… do 3 x 5 min and make it hurt. 1:1 recovery. A couple days later really hit the 1 min reps. You don’t need to do a huge amount… maybe 10-15 (sets of 5; 1 min between reps and 5 min between sets). That’s the stuff that will give you a VO2 boost in my opinion.
Doing back to back to back VO2 probably has its place somewhere for something… but it seems like you are more grinding through (VO2 endurance) rather than focusing on getting faster (VO2 speed).
I recommend this video and part 2 to those interested:
Also, there at least four episodes of That Triathlon Show with Michael Rosenblat as the guest. He is a researcher that has done several meta analysis papers on intervals. Long HIIT 4min+ seems to beat out short HIIT and SIT intervals for improving time trial performance.
So when I do 2min hard x 1min rest. By the 3rd interval I realize I’m in trouble with the 1min rest, since I don’t back off the power (ERG). It only takes me 20-30sec to be in the desired state….And if you multiplied that by 7-8 intervals you are getting and equivalent TiZ.
What I think this intervals add is the combination of massive power with the ragged breathing, with few compromises. The key is the short recovery period.
I’ve only done a couple…because like you I followed the tradition and usually do 3min and longer. My favorite way to do it is linking up 3-4 KOM attempts of diff durations and I empty the tank on each, obviously recovery periods are longer and irregular.
I would need to look at you having done two workouts to compare, but I don’t plan on changing the approach that I know works based on anecdata. The goal is not to make every single workout as hard as it can be.
You’d have to dig through his meta-analysis and the supporting research papers.
I found it interesting that he focused on TT performance as the primary outcome rather than some bio-marker that increased but didn’t show improved performance.
Here is his publication list:
You’ll find all of his papers available on Research Gate.
. I can’t imaging doing more than 3 or 4 intervals of 2x1 before vomiting.
still training VO2max. That most VO2max training happens to occur in “zone 5” is coincidental to the fact that that’s probably the maximum power you can sustain for the given interval length. DEscriptive, not PREscriptive.