What is more important - average heart rate for a given interval, or the max heart rate achieved during said interval? I ask because I tend to recover my HR pretty quickly after hard efforts, but may end up going pretty far out of the target HR range by the end of a given interval.
I’m working off of a max HR of 185. During a sweet spot interval, I’ll start off around 120-130, but end up at the end of the interval close to 170. That means the average heart rate for the interval is right about where it should be - ~155-162 on the last set of sweet spot, but I’m really, really working by the end of them - harder than I feel like I should be. That seems harder than most Sweet Spot intervals I’m used to doing outside of TR and I’m wondering if this is all just slightly too hard. My FTP has stalled over the past 6 months despite sticking to the TR plans and adjustments, trying more volume and now less volume, but no matter what it’s been right around 321-323 for ~7 months. Despite enough sleep and nutrition, I’m just not making progress. My legs are constantly tired, but also these interval workouts seem just a little bit too difficult. So I’m wondering if this is impacting my recovery too negatively by having these ‘sweet spot’ workouts be not actually sweet spot.
I’m filling out the survey as “hard”, which is what it was because I COULD have done another set of intervals, even though it felt hard. It would have pushed me to the max.
I don’t use HR much for training. But when I do, it’s more about the movement during the interval vs the hard numbers. For sweet spot, I’d expect it to stabilize within a ~5 minutes and drift very little from there. For 6 minute SS intervals, it’s hard to read much into them based on HR since that’s so short. Are you just getting into sweet spot work? If so, maybe you just need a few workouts to get your legs/endurance going and push those intervals out to much longer durations and HR might tell more of a story at that point. Your FTP is over 10 watts higher than mine and ~280w is comfortable for me right now and I could hold it for well over an hour without much drama. But back in January, 10 minute SS intervals at 270 would have felt a little uncomfortable (with just a slightly lower FTP). Basically, sweet spot feels hard early in base phase, but comes around pretty quick as the volume and interval duration push out. At least for me. But sweet spot is also my happy place, I’m a diesel.
No, I’ve been doing structured training for almost 5 years, sweet spot included. That’s why I’m a little concerned with how hard these are. They’re just more intense than I typically associate with SS, even though I’m capable of doing them.
Sorry, I should have asked differently. Have you been doing sweet spot and/or FTP work recently? If ~280w is feeling really hard when your FTP is ~320 and you’ve been working those zones recently, that doesn’t sound right unless you are really fatigued or underfueled, etc.. How does a ~20’ effort around 320w feel? Do you feel confident that ~320w is a good steady state power for you? Everyone is different, but for me an effort 40w under FTP is going to feel deliberate, but reasonably comfortable (when I’m properly fit and fueled).
Yeah, it’s been in every plan at least once a week for the past few months. It always feels harder than I think it maybe should. However, if I fill the survey out correctly (ie “I could have done one more”, which is 100% true), it doesn’t really make it easier.
To answer your initial question: typically, for training neither is more important. However, as I understand you ask a different question, namely, “I think my heart rate is unusually high. What do you think is going on?” Unusually high or unusually low heart rate can be a symptom of long-term fatigue. Some of the other symptoms you describe point in the same direction (stagnation of fitness, everything feeling harder than it should be = increased RPE).
Hence, I suggest you try to shed fatigue by dramatically lowering your volume (think half) or even stopping to train for several weeks. Then I would restart at low volume (two hard intervals and one endurance ride) and see how your body reacts to that.
Well, that’s what I did. I went from an ‘aggressive’ setting with 3 days per week of intensity and 9.5-10 hrs to a ‘balanced’ setting master’s plan with only 6.5 hours of training. I took a full week off of training in between (no weights, no cardio, nothing).
I really thought TR would be adjusting things for me, since it should know my HR is “higher than I think it should be.” If I cannot complete the workout as prescribed, it’s an all-out. I try to give it feedback when I cannot complete the workouts to tell it ‘hey, this is too hard/too much intensity’, but it apparently thinks I can still do these Threshold/SS workouts at the prescribed intensity, because it keeps giving them to me. And those aren’t the ones I’m failing; they’re just hard. But like I said, I COULD do another set of intervals, but they seem to be more difficult than SS should be.
That’s a reduction of about 1/3, not 50 %. And a one-week break is not sufficient either if you are dealing with long-term fatigue. So I suspect it simply isn’t enough to allow your body to recover.
I’d take a month off and then start training at around 50 % volume (5–6 hours per week), e. g. 2 x 1-hour interval sessions and one 90ish-minute endurance workout, perhaps capped at an IF of 0.65 or 0.63.
Athletes set the overall volume and this is something you have to adjust manually. Long-term fatigue is more difficult to catch and is beyond the scope of adaptive training.
I think TR survey is a bit limited. 1-5 is too little. I did Bird -1 (VO2MAx 4.5) yesterday. 3 sets of 5x1min 130% 2 min rest. It was pretty hard, but not all out. I rate it as all out, although I don’t think it was really all-out, trying to be conservative.
1-10 I’d rate it 8. But 1-5, 4 seems a bit “too little”, and 5 doesn’t seem all-out/maximum effort.
Not to be weird about it or anything, but why is your recommendation for 5-6 hours significantly different from the 6.5 I’m doing now? Is it just because of the IF cap?
I don’t think I can mentally take a whole month off the bike. I enjoy it too much, so perhaps just keeping everything at a low IF and not too much volume? Like, the weather is so perfect where I live right now, and it’s only going to be a sauna in a month, so I’d like to be able to keep doing stuff outside.
As for the overall volume, I’ve had TR reduce my volume for me (usually going from a 1.5hr ride to a 30 min recovery recommendation). Now, that doesn’t carry over week to week, but it’s certainly done it on a per week basis.
Last summer, TSS was high, but I felt absolutely great. Got sick and had a couple of vacations in September, completely off the bike. In October, I went into a 3 month Build High Volume from TR. I thought it would be fine because the TSS was lower than what I had been doing that summer. Followed by 2 months of Build, and now I’m into the Custom Improve Climbing Master’s Plan with the lowest volume I’ve had in a while.
Same trainer I’ve had for 5 years, calibrated often. None of this is different from what I’ve been doing.
I train mostly indoors, with the occasional ride outside when weather permits (1-2 times per week outdoors in the spring-fall). I don’t do the structured interval training outside because it’s too difficult to find a place to do it, so I just keep it easy and enjoy the ride outside.
I don’t really use HR for training just review it where I consider both (ave and max).
For say a SS interval I want to see my average remained about stable compared to the average and the maximum never creeped up too much above it. But I won’t let it bother me within the session. But HR creep especially indoors is normal and coincides with what you are experiencing @silock (things feeling harder at the end indoors compared to outdoors). Since you’ve been at it for 5 years I think its pretty normal to hit a plateau. I think searching around the forum or TR Help you may find something that helps you overcome it. I must admit though I’m at a stage where I’m not to bothered about plateauing.
Conversely, for VO2max intervals I look more at the max on review, as I like to see I have pushed in to a higher HR zone at some point.
If you continue, I reckon it’ll just stay the same. You have already cut your training by about 1/3, and you still report higher RPE and heart rate than what you are used to.
You should give your body time and opportunity to regenerate, and what you have done so far isn’t enough. Long-term fatigue is dangerous in that it could take many weeks off the bike to cure. If the diagnosis is correct, the longer you wait, the higher the interest that accrues in the meantime.
If the problems still persist, then you are still doing too much. E. g. 6.5 hours probably means you are doing 4 workouts per week. My point is to cut more volume and intensity after some time off.
I asked if you do mainly indoors because this might have an effect. There’s a lot of conversation about indoor and outdoor FTP.
I feel that doing SST/FTP outdoor is way easier than indoors. Sustained power efforts indoors aren’t great for me. I’ll do them, but I know I’ll have to work at the lower spectrum of the wattage. As I use a set of rollers, if I feel it’s a bit too much I reduced the pace and don’t worry hitting the target on the dime. If I’m close it’s fine.
VO2max I think it’s more productive indoors than outdoors. Weird, I know.
I took a look at your training history and I too feel you may be carrying some fatigue.
I went back to 2021 and looked at your training pattern since then. It looks like prior to 2024, you were Zwifting a lot with no real pattern of interval training.
Then what I looked at more closely was 2024:
Dec 2023 through March 2024 you did your first nice blocks of structure interval training.
April, you did a bunch of Zwift workouts.
May looks like you rode little, so I would consider this a month off training.
Mid June through September you also did a bunch of Zwift rides.
October, you got sick and right after this you trained for 2 weeks and jumped straight it with a High Volume Base Plan
3 weeks into the High Volume HadHoc Base I plan you had a back injury that took you out a week, followed by a nice endurance recovery week, so this was a nice rest, but maybe not enough.
Then completed Base II and Base III which is looking pretty good, followed by about a week’s vacation before starting your Build phase
You completed your 8-week Build phase followed by a week’s vacation (in here is where you started rating your workouts with “Fatigue”)
Right after this on March 25th you started a new Mid Volume plan for Improving Climbing which I see you rated an Endurance and Threshold workout as Hard and Maximum Effort due to Intensity.
Looking at the bird’s eye view I think we went straight into a High Volume structured training plan too soon. We only recommend High Volume plans to very experienced athletes with structured training because it is a lot. While you may have been doing similar hours on Zwift, not all TSS is created equal, plus you were all of a sudden doing a lot more interval work per week than before. This coupled with the fact that you started your structured training after being sick, and had a back injury in the middle (not sure of what sort), may be an indication that you need to slow down and give the body a rest.
I’d also really answer the post-workout surveys honestly. You mentioned in your original post that you rated a 90-minute SS workout as hard because one more interval would have pushed you to the max. To me, that sounds more like a very hard effort. I’d suggest focusing on how the overall effort felt instead of whether you can complete an extra set.
I like that you’ve lowered the intensity already, so that’s great! Moving forward, it sounds like you want to keep riding which is totally reasonable, but if you’re not going to take time off then I’d suggest really listening to your body, accepting all the recommended Red/Yellow Days our fatigue management system is giving you and choose Workout Alternates if needed.
Additionally, it would be good to settle on a plan and volume (ideally a bit lower than expected for you right now) and stick to it for an extended period of time. This is going to be really key here to see how your body actually responds to a consistent load over a prolonged period of time. Starting low and adjusting to a higher volume is the safest path to knowing exactly where you need to be without falling into the overtrained wagon.
P.S: about your HR questions, I’d focus on average HR for an interval. Small things like getting out of the saddle, sitting up, sipping your bottle, blowing your nose, and even mental distractions can all cause HR spikes. Your HR will likely rise throughout the workout as you generate more heat and fatigue. That’s expected and okay.
I do agree that there’s some built up fatigue happening, but I’m trying to pinpoint exactly where it went wrong.
A few things: There must be something wrong with the Strava/Zwift/TR integration or something (most likely to not having Premium Strava, a Zwift sub and a TR sub all at the same time), because I have been doing structured training, including interval training since late 2020. I think the plan info wasn’t coming through or something in the Strava upload, so it just looks like a random Zwift ride. Most of the time, I was doing something like a Zwift Training Plan (Build Me Up, TT Tune Up, Zwift Racing Plan), for better or worse. It was actually a Build Me Up plan late last summer that took me from a 265 FTP up to 315. So, there’s been a lot of structured interval training. In fact, that TT Tune-Up has some intervals that are so outrageously difficult in relation to the base training portion that I had to abandon the plan (which is what really pushed me over the edge toward TR). I felt I had gotten all I could out of the Zwift plans and wanted something better.
Some of the ‘time off’ wasn’t actually time off, although it was time off the bike. I played a lot of soccer (right up until that back injury last year), but that doesn’t all upload to Strava. I get it that that’s a different type of stress for sure and shouldn’t be counted as the same kind of stress that cycling workouts give. However, it’s not just inactivity.
The back injury is a back defect, so not something related to training - it just sidelines me for a while when it happens.
Hard
This ride required effort and focus and was challenging to complete. This will feel tough and you’ll look forward to this ride ending. If there was an additional interval, you could have done it with some focus.
This is how I feel with many of the workouts. It was ‘tough, I looked forward to it ending, but I could have done another interval with some focus.’ But you’re saying I should be rating these workouts as Very Hard, even though I could do another interval? When would I use Hard then? And since I don’t rate many workouts as ‘Very Hard’, but rather ‘All Out’ because I either have to take breaks or turn down the intensity, doesn’t that make the distinction between Very Hard and All Out kind of non-existent? I guess I’m confused because the description for Very Hard says ‘If there would have been one more interval, you wouldn’t have been able to do it.’
So, back to where I went wrong, I’m still not sure. With VERY rare exceptions, I have always respected the yellow days as Endurance days, and since being on the TR plans in 2024/2025, I don’t think I’ve ever even HAD a red day. My plan is this: I’ve abandoned the TR plans I had going forward and pushed the start date out by a month. My guess as to what happened is that I should have picked a Master’s plan with that higher volume. I didn’t, though, as I figured TR would adjust down for me. I do, in general, prefer the higher volume. I’ll get back to it with 3 months at a normal (for me) volume of around 6 hours a week, with a Master’s plan. Then, I’ll transition into a higher volume after that if there’s no fatigue.
AIUI the Build Me Up plan is 13 weeks, 52 workouts, with ~4.5h per week and 396 TSS
If that is the plan that delivered you a 50W / 19% FTP increase, then I would say the resulting FTP has to be quite fragile. By that I mean that there is simply not enough volume in it to deliver a truly sustainable and solid FTP growth of that magnitude.
I say that is evidenced by you having to abandon the subsequent TT Tune Up plan due to “outrageously difficult” intervals.
You say you prefer the higher volume (which is good) and note that you should have picked a Master’s Plan with that higher volume. I think you are right with that.
We are all trading off volume against intensity to some extent and, when we increase volume, we have to be really careful about the intensity distribution in our higher volume schedules.
You say you will get back to it with 3 months at a normal (for you) volume of around 6 hours a week, with a Master’s plan. That is a good idea and I am suggesting an alternative that you could also consider.
Up the volume, but lose one of the higher intensity workouts (i.e. just do 1 high intensity day per week, not the two that the Master’s Plan usually has).
Heck, even upping the volume and scrubbing all the high intensity rides can work very well too. There is a lot to be gained from doing a lot of tempo and lower end sweetspot workouts.
It is almost always better to lean towards less intensity than more. Particularly if doing more intensity negatively affects the number one priority of any endurance training plan: consistency.
It was accompanied by 2 outdoor rides per week. My overall TSS during that period was quite a bit higher.
I wasn’t clear, and that’s on me; I have abandoned TT Tune Up before, after finishing a Build Me Up (which I’ve run 3-4 times). I’ve attempted TT Tune Up twice, but abandoned both times around week 8 due to the difficulty.
The increase that Build Me Up gave me was sustained and grown upon via TR. BMU gave me 315, and then a few months later, AI FTP gave me 321, 323, and 321 again. So, I think it’s sustainable, just not with all the intensity.
Agreed. I had hoped to get up to a 350 FTP by the end of the year with consistent training, and I still think that’s remotely achievable, but it’s gonna take a bunch of recovery first.
