I dont know if I find this necessarily true based on data that manufactures are putting out. Before I explain, please note that I think Berd spokes are awesome (we use Dyneema on the sailboats, so I like the material) and I have a few friends with Berd base wheels.
So the chart is indicating that a Berd spoke at 2.4g has a strength of 300kg. They dont really state what manufacture metal spoke they are testing against but the strongest metallic spoke they have is a .9 x2.2mm bladed at over 4g per spoke and lets say 280kg.
But what we came to conclusion was that a Sapim CX-Ray per the manufacture is rated at 323kg at a weight of 4.25g but a aero carbon spoke at 2.6g have a rating of 440kg. The oval lighter spoke which is 2.3g has a strength of 369kg. The 1.8g spoke that was just released from Nextie has a rating/strength of around 3245N (330kg).
So, that being said without any independent testing being done and just looking at manufactures published data that the carbon spoke is ālighter and strongerā
As I mentioned, I like Berd, just putting the perspective out there is all.
Note that while those chartsā y-axes are labeled as āstrengthā I think what they really mean is tensile yield load. I think the main concern people have with carbon spokes on a mountain bike wheel isnāt tensile yield strength but their brittleness in the lateral direction i.e. their susceptibility to being broken by a stick or rock strike. This Berd data doesnāt pertain to that scenario.
At the same time, youāre a little bit biased with your involvement with Nextie. I personally have a ton of experience with Carbon, Prepreg, Carbon / Kevlar blends, and Dyneema. Although not a ton with carbon spokes, some.
And, what I was referring to was actually this type of testing:
I have two wheelsets on hand with them, and the ability to resist impact is an area where they will 100% be stronger. Period. Iād be comfortable sitting there hitting them with a hammer, and Iād never do that with any carbon or metal spoke Iāve seen.
Now, that will have tradeoffs in terms of outright stiffness, but that could be a good or a bad thing depending on what youāre looking for.
I would disagree with certain caveats. I have a set of Enve 525 with Berd spokes and I love them but have recently been challenged with breaking spokes in places/situations that I donāt think would have been an issue with metal spokes. While they may be more impact resistant to a smooth concentrated hit, they are very susceptible to abrasion damage from rocks. Racing in Grand Junction recently, there are a lot of tight rocky sections and turning in too early or sliding sideways off a rock can definitely put a spoke in direct contact with a rock. With a metal spoke you would typically just scratch or maybe bend the spoke, with the Berds they fail MUCH more readily. I broke 1 in Moab and 2 in Grand Junction. Iām fixing them and keeping on with Berds, but I think the idea of them always being a stronger/more durable option is somewhat misleading.
Good to know. Canāt say Iāve had the same experience yet. Iāve taken hits that have bent my derailleur hangar, have broken metal spokes, but so far the berds have been rock solid for me.
Where did they fail? I do know they are very particular about installation and making sure there are no sharper edges, holes are rounded and smooth, and there have been reports of failure because of that, but if they failed or cut in the middle thatās a different story.
(Edit - for those who donāt know, depending on what hubs you use, they may need minor modifications which is a downside. You basically have to round / bevel the spoke hole in certain scenarios. Ideal scenario is probably to use one of their Hook Flange Hubs)
They failed in the middle of the spoke, near the start of the metal stem that threads into the nipple. Berd built the wheels themselves and have been pretty helpful in sourcing replacements but they agreed/confirmed the failures looked to be the direct result of abrasion.
Yeah, based on that mustāve been a hit by shale / sharper edge of a rock sliding off it, something sharp like you said. So maybe a blunt hit - stronger and more durable. But looks like you found a scenario where they donāt hold up.
Interesting question though, what would have been the result with a carbon spoke in that scenario? My off the cuff reaction is Iād want a steel spoke for those conditions if that was what I was trying to protect against.
Agreed! Iām generally very happy with the Berds as I mentioned but this one caught me off guard a bit. I would imagine a carbon spoke would likely fail too but hard to say for sure. A steel spoke I think would have been ok, even a lightweight one.
The other real downside to this setup is Enve and their stupid internal nipples. Makes it very hard to quickly replace a spoke and also impossible to adjust the other spokes to help compensate for the massive wobble caused by the broken one. Thankfully for the ones that broke in Grand Junction during a race, the tire just BARELY cleared the frame with itās wobble so I didnāt have to just carry the bike home
I was hoping the way I delivered my thoughts wouldnāt make it feel as I have a bias as I necessarily donāt. There are a lot of manufactures using carbon spokes now and how I read your post I thought it in a lateral sense as such a rim strike not necessarily a direct strike to the spoke.
Iāll be the first to admit, Iām not going to whack my spokes with a hammer. I would be interested to see some private testing done on spokes, I think that would be very cool and nice for us users.
Yeah, maybe that came across harsh. My comments were more this. You canāt have your cake and eat it too. There are scenarios where each of Steel, Aluminum, Carbon, Dyneema will be best. You just have to choose whatās most important to you.
I think choice is a good thing. Berd spokes are an interesting option that Iām glad is out there, steel spokes are tried and true, carbon is a logical thing for manufacturers to try.
All my past wheelsets were major brands that offered lifetime warranties and I was fine with reliability and promise of service over chasing lowest possible weight. On my new build I indulged chasing an arbitrary weight goal and NEXTIE with carbon spokes was by far the most economical way to chase that weight target.
Iāve never broken a spoke in my life which is maybe a product of body weight and a not particularly aggressive riding style. Carbon didnāt seem like an excessive risk for me, but Iāll certainly report back if I break one.
Iāve actually been considering replacing them recently and I am a big fan of WAO but I wish they made a reasonably light 30mm iw wheel. I bought my brother a set of Factions years ago and they are awesome.
I have a set of Extralite CarboCamber 330 that are super light and feel great but are race only as they arenāt the most durable (Iāve killed one set).
Huntās Proven XC Wide are very appealing and are on sale right now tooā¦and they include the H Care lifetime replacement
Iām probably looking to build a set of 30IW rims at some point myself, Reserve look somewhat interesting to me too, but Iāll admit I donāt know a ton about them.
I thought I just heard that Enve is supposedly working on a new XC wheel, which would be interesting to see if thatās true and what changes they make.
They are and the little bit that Iāve seen/heard is to expect that they will be wider and lighter than the M525. Alexey and @Jonathan have both been running them but everyone has been tightlipped on details. Iām super interested and am trying to put off any decisions on wheelsets until I know what the story with them is, other than I know they will be $$$
Iāve had weareone unions on my enduro bike for years, this will be my fourth season. They are absolutely fantastic and so strong, my style is pretty āmonster truckā and Iāve broken one spoke that whole time. Theyāre getting due for a rebuild, but Iām very happy.
Agreed with another commenter: I wish they made a lightweight xc rim, Iād be all over that. Crazy the value they can offer for a made in Canada product.
