Is being sore after a workout a good thing? When is it bad?

Training
1

My legs feel very tired after every sweetspot ride. I have trouble going up stairs for the next few hours (I workout in the early morning)

The next day I feel fine.

(Sorry if this was covered on the podcast)

2

Try eating a bit more during those workouts.

For anything ≥1.5 hour I aim to eat ~50% of the kcal burned during the ride and have some carbs+protein afterwards.

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It’s bad when you feel it the next day. It’s very individual but you’ll have to learn those times when you need to dial things down to tempo, endurance, or full rest.

Being sore after a workout is occasionally a good thing. You just shouldn’t feel that way all the time. It’s more common to feel the soreness of a tough workout the next day or the day after that.

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Is it a general soreness or a particular muscle? If it’s in one particular place, perhaps there’s an issue with your saddle height or pedalling technique that’s forcing that muscle to do too much work…

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Tired is okay. Sore might be depending on the circumstances. If you’re fine the next day, then all is good. How long are the workouts? If over an hour, you might consider popping a gel or something. But, as long as you feel fine and are ready to go the next day, it doesn’t sound like there is a problem.

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My legs have been sore since I started TR (July 2018). Seriously, I can’t remember a time they haven’t been sore to some degree, maybe towards the end of some of the recovery weeks, but then that long Sunday ride makes them sore again. My legs go from sore to really f’ing sore :leg::tired_face:.

I do mid volume plans and I’ve been sore through Traditional Base 1, 2, 3, then General Build and now midway through SSB1. I eat a ton before, on the bike and never miss a recovery drink. Doesn’t matter, still get sore. Oddly enough week 7 of General Build, which should have been the hardest, I was less sore :man_shrugging:. I can’t make any rhyme or reason out of it.

My FTP gone from 193 (2.3 w/kg) to 287 (3.7 w/kg) in the meantime, so I just keep working through and despite the soreness.

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Are your legs truly sore or just feeling heavy and fatigued? If you are just walking around, do they feel sore or do they feel sore when you have to squat down or put some tension into them? Either way, I would say it sounds normal.

Some people think if they are tired or mildly sore, they are over-training. On the other hand, some think they have to trash themselves every workout in order to make progress. :man_shrugging:

You have made some big gains! :+1:Watts :arrow_up:: Kilos :arrow_down:

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In contrast, my legs rarely feel fatigued or heavy. They are sore and bark at me going up stairs and sometimes downstairs if they’re bad. Also if I go into a squat position. I asked my brother who been a road (TT) rider/racer for 10+ years and asked him, “are your legs always sore from indoor training?” His response was “my legs have been sore for 10 years”, lol. So maybe there’s a genetic factor.

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My legs do generally feel heavy and a bit tight before i get on the bike.

By the end of the warm up, I do find that they loosen up though.

Make sure you’re helping them recover - Sitting down where possible, recovery shake etc :slight_smile:

10

Did this ever resolve for you? How or what did you do? I’ve been experiencing the same thing lately. A long time ago I was an experienced cyclist and don’t ever recall having this problem for weeks on end. Then again I was in my 20’s and could recover faster than a cat dropped from a roof. For me it happened this time after a longer ride where I was fasted and went for too long. Since then the soreness comes and goes but never fully goes away. It doesn’t seem to have really impacted my “performance” thus far as I’m still able to go out and ride and feel good, but I’m really only doing Zone 2 at the moment and building as I get back into cycling again.

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I’d argue the opposite. Tired legs means to me that you can’t put out the the power prescribed, but soreness is just discomfort. If you can’t put out the necessary power because your legs are “tired”, then you aren’t recovered enough and may miss out on adaptations. Soreness is just a state of mind.

12

Sorry, didn’t realize this was a thread resurrected from the dead. Soreness will most likely always be there. It should not be something as serious as “DOMS” where you can’t move without pain, but if I jab my thumb into my quad muscle on any given day, I will feel some minor discomfort. In my mind, this doesn’t affect performance to a signficant degree.

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13

I’ve dialed back my training a bit and I end up being in the “fresh” and “grey” zone for a few weeks. Before I always was slightly sore and tired but now my legs feel like jelly or spaghetti. I much preferred the slightly tired and sore feeling even when I push through for a few reps I singe

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14

I now don’t take days off the bike anymore. I ride 7 days a week as lightly spinning the legs for 1:00-1:30 feels better than a day off. I’ve also increased my volume to 20+ hour weeks but much less intensity. I don’t worry about workouts and if my legs don’t have the power to hit the given interval workout, I just ride endurance.

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I’m very curious about your approach. Could you describe a typical week?. Like duration of ride and time of the day (indoor/outdoor)….How do you incorporate family + work + other hobbies.

Thanks

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It sounds like you may have dug yourself into a whole that is taking a minute to get out of. Don’t worry though. With a sensible approach to training, you should fully recover. I went to take a peek at your Calendar to see if I could help point you in the right direction and I couldn’t find your account. Have you tried TrainerRoad since Red Light Green Light was released?

You sound like a perfect candidate for Red Light Green Light and Adaptive Training :eyes: . Red Light Green Light uses machine learning to analyse your training to prevent long term fatigue. You can learn more about it here: Red Light Green Light.

Otherwise, how is your nutrition and sleep? Getting these right (or wrong) will have an enormous impact on your recovery.

If you have any questions, please let us know!

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Hi Sarah,

Thanks for the info. I have not signed up for TR just yet. I’ve only been back on the bike for about 8 weeks now. Last time I was truly riding was about 2001. I got back to it a bit back in 2004/05, then I came down with chronic fatigue in '06 due to an environmental illness. That journey took 13 years to recover from and I got active again in 2019/20. It wasn’t cycling but hiking for my job. Unfortunately in Dec 2020 right as I was starting to feel the power I had felt back in my cycling days, I suffered a pretty bad knee injury that required surgery and took me out for 8 months. Since then, I’ve done a bit of trainer riding now and then over the past few years but nothing strung together long enough to get in any kind of shape.

As luck/unluck would have it, a cold has made it’s way through my family and I’ve got it too right now. I pulled back on my enthusiasm/drive and only managed a light Z1/Z2 spin the other day instead of my usual 2-4 hour rides on my weekends. I’ll call this my recovery week, bounce back and be a little bit more sensible and restrained going forward.

I typically get up at 3am and do a Z2 road ride for an hour before work 3-4 days a week, then on my weekends I do anywhere from 2.5 to 5 hours of mostly Z2 road riding. The hills and my unbridled enthusiasm find me pushing it now and then on certain stretches near the end of my rides for an informal sprinkling of Z4/5 work. The weekend rides also start at 3am (I am very grateful for the technology that created such awesome headlights vs what was available back in 2006). Also, my kids are young and the heat in Arizona is too intense right now, so I do this or I wouldn’t get any riding in.

As for sleep, it’s improving. This is another reason I head out at 3am. Prior to getting back into cycling, I would go to bed around 8-9pm (right after the kids go down) and then wake about 12-1 am. I’d just lay there for 4-5 hrs until it was time to go to work so I figured I might as well just get up and go do something. I also run a small organic market garden on the side but for some reason I just couldn’t bring myself to do extra work on the farm at those hours.

The fatigue due to poor sleep was the biggest hurdle to overcome when getting back into cycling/exercising but I knew I had to do it. I knew long term it should eventually help me sleep better. None of the natural supplements (and I’ve used them all) had helped long term. When the Dr wanted to put me on some kind of drugs to help with sleep it gave me the extra motivation to get me moving I suppose, because I’m not messing with my brain chemistry. Ain’t no one ever suffered from a deficiency of pharmaceuticals.

I’d say nutrition is pretty good. It’s pretty much how I overcame the chronic fatigue. Not that I ate poorly before. Testing revealed a whole host of things that were staples in my diet that I was allergic to and causing systemic inflammation. With those removed I’ve achieved a decent level of recovery, not fully but enough to get me active. I’ve been mostly Paleo since 1999 with occasional lapses for stretches. I even dove into the the Keto thing back in 2016/17. I’ve settled on what I’d describe at “Dirty Paleo” as I am grain free (except for when I make homemade rice or oat or millet based energy bars for the longer rides.) The dirty part comes from the grass fed dairy I consume (butter, cheese and 1/2-n-1/2 or heavy cream). Eggs from our own chickens and most produce from our own gardens.

My degree is in Exercise Science from Penn State '98 and I’ve never really stopped following exercise and nutrition related science. I did some coaching and was a personal trainer shortly after graduation but after a bad crash that forced me to retire from a relentless pursuit of cycling, I made my way into the working professionals world. I haven’t used my degree in nearly 25 years.

I don’t currently have a fancy trainer that does power and talks to devices but will probably get one in the Fall. This is another reason I haven’t committed to TR or any other platform just yet. I’m also mostly focused on Z2 for all the benefits, longevity and for me it’s just down right fun to head out for hours and hours (when the kids are at school or before they get up) to clear the mind, breath deep and de-stress.

I will definitely look into the Red Light Green Light model you mentioned and get started with some form of training/tracking in the near future.

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Thanks. I’m more interested to hear when in the day you fit your 20h/week and how do you fit it in the context of family and work.

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Thanks for sharing :heart_hands:. It sounds like quite the journey you’ve been on. I actually have a similar story to you. It makes me so happy to hear you feel well enough to ride again :face_holding_back_tears:. I understand the temptation to push when your body gives you the slightest indication you can do more again.

I, like you, am slowly learning that restraint in these moments can help with consistency. Red Light Green Light (RLGL) helps with that. Let me know if you have any questions about TrainerRoad or RLGL when you get round to checking it out.

I’m glad your sleep is improving. It’s great to hear you have found a diet that works for you and has markedly improved your health :raised_hands:. I’d suggest making sure you are eating enough in general and adequate amounts of protein, cabrohydrates and fats, to support your training volume.

We’ve had Dr Kyle Pfaffenbach on the podcast a few times recently. He is deeply immersed in the research on a daily basis, so lots of our athletes (including myself) have found his insghts to be extremely helpful and actionable. I will link to those episodes below.

Here are some takeaways:

Protein:

  • Your optimal protein intake will likely be in the range of 1.2-2.0 g/kg/BW. It’s best to start somewhere in the middle, and then adjust further down the line if necessary.
  • We’d suggest aiming for 1.5 g/kg/ BW initially.

Fat:

  • Most people find that somewhere between 1.2-1.4 g/ kg/BW is best for them.
    You should not go lower than 1.1 g/ kg/ BW.
  • Fat is essential to hormonal health.
  • Your fat and protein needs should be stable irrespective of daily fluctuations in training volume. Carbohydrate requirements will vary with training volume.

Carbohydrate:

  • If you estimate that your daily average caloric requirement is 2500 calories, plan to hit your fat and and protein targets, and then fill the rest of the calories with carbohydrates.
  • Carbohydrate timing matters for performance. Make sure that you are fueling your hard workouts with carbohydrates (before and during).
  • If you are starting on the lower end (420 grams), I suggest you try gradually increasing this over time to see how much you can consume before your weight changes.
  • Keep track of your performance, energy levels, sleep and recovery. This will help inform where you should land.
  • Below are the conversations we have had with Dr Kyle Pfaffenbach, that I think you’ll find helpful:

Late Night Workouts: Scientific Deep Dive w/Dr. Kyle Pfaffenbach – Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast 458
How to Lose Weight and Keep it Off with Dr. Kyle Pfaffenbach – Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast 463
Protein for Cyclists and Sodium Loading with Dr. Kyle Pfaffenbach - Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast 479

You actually don’t need a trainer to use TrainerRoad! You can do all of your rides Outside.

This is important. If this is what you need from cycling at the moment, I fuuuuuullllly support it :heart_hands:.

Let me know if there is anything we can help with :hearts:.

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