Table Sugar/Sucrose + Glucose to Achieve a 2:1

You can get table sugar for $0.07/ounce from Costco.

I currently buy pure glucose for $0.50/ounce on Amazon.

I also buy pure fructose on amazon for $0.57/ounce on Amazon.

My workout and race nutrition currently involves mixing the glucose and fructose at a 2:1 ratio totaling 60 g of carbs per hour.

My question is as follows - Can I instead take that same 60 g of carbs and have 75% of it come from simple table sugar/sucrose (45 g) since sucrose is a 1:1 of glucose to fructose? The remaining 25% would then be pure glucose.

This would reduce my cost of fueling and make one of the ingredients more accessible. I just don’t hear anyone talking about it. Has anyone also thought of this method to achieve a 2:1 ratio? Thanks!

+1 for Maltodextrin. I’ve used table sugar, and it gets too sweet/sticky for my tastes. Maltodextrin is far superior in reduction of those factors.

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So you combine Malt. with Sucrose/Table Sugar?

Maltodextrin and Fructose - as has been thoroughly discussed here in the forum. A quick search of “Maltodextrin” will give you way more reading materials than you may have bargained for. :crazy_face:

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My question was more revolving around sucrose/table sugar since it’s cheaper than pure fructose. If you can link me to a discussion about table sugar and bringing it to a 2:1 ratio, I’d love to read it.

paging @Dr_Alex_Harrison

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Couldn’t one just use 60g sucrose (or preferably more) per hour?

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yeah you can.

There is definitely discussion of using table sugar and/or Gatorade to cut cost in the massive thread. Unfortunately for me, it makes me sick to my stomach, so I’ve just stuck to the M:F mix which works for me.

https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/search?context=topic&context_id=16117&q=%22Table%20sugar%22&skip_context=true

Yes.

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If you want 2:1 glucose:fructose, just use 2:1 sugar:malto, by weight.

Yes, it works great.

I’d probably opt for more like 8 parts sucrose, 1 part maltodextrin, for a 5:4 ratio of glucose to fructose (ie. 1:0.8 glucose:fructose ratio), if I were going to use anything but plain sugar. 1:1 glucose:fructose ratio works just fine for lots of folks. Sucrose is just that.

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Asker Jeukendrup has a good blog on the use of multiple transportable carbs. One point he makes on that is that sucrose behaves as if it is just glucose and not as multiple carb sources as one might think to quote from the blog:“Studies suggest that carbohydrate oxidation from a sucrose drink is similar to glucose and does not reach the high oxidation rates observed with glucose and fructose (or other multiple transportable carbohydrates).”

See https://www.mysportscience.com/post/2015/05/14/carb-mixes-and-benefits.

His point is that the research says you need to saturate the glucose transport path first which means 60g glucose per hour, then add fructose to utilize the secondary pathway for fructose and it seems that up to 1:1 ratio, if tolerable, is good for performance.

Since maltodextrin is metabolized as if it were glucose the 60 grams/hour can be malto and the rest fructose up to the 1:1 ratio. So this is interesting and why one might not get what you expect our to sucrose because of the unusual utilization effect.

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Interesting. So if you’re bigger or have higher power and can consume 120g/hour without issue, you shouldn’t have to worry about the saturation effect? Could this explain why some riders have gut distress when adding fructose? Because that’s what’s left over if you’re not burning well in excess of 60g/hour of glucose?

I bought 12lbs of Maltodextrin for 17c per 30g of carbs with free shipping. The challenge has been finding fructose as cheap. Nevertheless I do 40/20 + a gel or rice cake an hour which gets me to 80/90.

This is literally what tailwind is

30g malto + 30g sucrose
makes 45g glu/15g fru which is 3:1
Am I getting that right?

Shouldn’t you do 40gsucrose + 20g malto?

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Any reason your shooting for 2:1 and only 60g/hr?

But I think you’d be looking at more like 66% sucrose and 33% glucose to get a 2:1. Your plan would be more like 5/8 glucose and 3/8 fructose.

:man_facepalming: yes, sorry! Edited. Thanks for catching that.

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So it looks like we have to use mostly table sugar to get closer to a 1:1 ratio. Are there any tricks to getting closer to 1:1 and not have it be so sweet. Maltodextrin + fructose?

His own research shows otherwise, IIRC. Can’t recall the study(ies), but I’m reasonably confident he himself has produced research >10 years ago showing that sucrose worked great, at least as a large portion of beverage carb content.

Certainly there is growing evidence that that statement is not completely true, and may be substantially inaccurate.

Dr. Asker Jeukendrup is like a mountain. He’s produced massively valuable research, and loads of it. He’s shaped the field. But like the mountain of a man that he is, he’s very slow-moving.

Especially, in terms of becoming open to ideas that go against what his early research indicated, and what he (and Gatorade) broadly promoted. He’s whip smart, and his ability to communicate ideas is excellent. But he’s been cautious to the point of many of his public recommendations being sometimes 10 years behind what the newest research has pretty clearly indicated.

Some might argue that’s a good thing. And it has advantages for sure. Safety being one of them. And not being “wrong” another one of them. But I wouldn’t look to him for the newest ideas.

The real problem with the slow-to-adopt, and the “simplify at all costs” approach is that it’s not always a completely true assessment of the literature and it hides important inter-individual variation completely. His approach is more of a “this is what we can absolutely prove so far, and we don’t think you’re intelligent enough to weigh the tradeoffs effectively, so we won’t go into the nuance or any conflict within the body of research.” That’s pretty much what you want in a journal’s position stand, if you might be sued by someone interpreting your advice and having a bad outcome. Safety first.

But what that does is:

  1. Hides very revealing anecdotes, or entire studies.
  2. Overapplies subject population averages to each individual, completely masking individual variability which might be present and hugely meaningful in the population.

Example: Someone else does a study that uses people who happen to have been fueling with high carb intake regularly, and finds that they’ve got folks within that study metabolizing >2g/min exogenous carbs, and happily consuming 2.5g/min (150g/hr) carbs without GI issue. Those folks happen to be just folks with larger bodies or more muscle mass or just more well-trained cyclists.

Those folks are completely lost in the data. But those folks are often most similar to the people actually looking for information on the topic.

So, the slow-moving simplified approach to making broad recommendations is essentially blind to the future of research, which is often quite predictable and useful to predict. It’s short-sighted and narrow.

Thankfully, he’s now jumping onboard the “90-120g/hr” train of thought.

But let’s be real here, these round numbers in 30-gram steps are awfully convenient. They’re silly. I’d wager that over the next 2-3 years we’re going to hear broadly in the media, more about how 90-120g/hr may be possible in certain situations, and there won’t be much discussion of how to determine how to find the appropriate amount, between those numbers. It’ll just be 60, 90, 120, as the new numbers you know and love.

120 is going be thought of as the new “upper limit.” It’s not the upper limit.

I think the upper limit for the vast majority of people is below 150g/hr in most situations. Optimality is almost certainly in the 80-135g/hr range for most people, most of the time. There are 2 dozen factors influencing that.

But, importantly, I have a client who has enjoyed >170g/hr in some cases. He did it accidentally at first. Miscalculation. That’s very revealing.

Population variability is wide, and the variability wider at the upper limits, than the lower limits.

Check out that black data point out at 2.5g/hr (150g/hr). That’s at least indicative that we don’t know for sure that sucrose doesn’t work as well as glucose & fructose (or malto & fructose).

Notice there are no studies examining higher rates of intake.

The same was true back 20 years ago, but replace 2.5g/min (150g/hr) with 1.5g/min (90g/hr) or 1.75g/min (105g/hr).

Anyway… give it time.

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